Is “Who art” correct?
I came across these lines in a hymn:
Cherubim and seraphim falling down before Thee,
Which wert and art, and ever more shalt be.
I noticed that "wert", "art", and "shalt" were used with the subject "which" in the last line instead of which "thou." At first I thought this was just a grammatical mistake on the side of the hymn writer, but then I kept seeing such things where verbs in second person singular form are used with indefinite pronouns such as "which" or "who". Another example is give in this StackExchange question whose answer doesn't really answer my question.
So now I'm wondering, is it correct to use second person singular verbs with indefinite pronouns if the indefinite pronoun refers to a second person singular pronoun (in the hymn, "which" reffers to "Thee" from the last line)?
grammaticality pronouns archaic victorian-english
asked 2 hours ago
ElliotThomasElliotThomas
334
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ElliotThomas is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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add a comment |
I came across these lines in a hymn:
Cherubim and seraphim falling down before Thee,
Which wert and art, and ever more shalt be.
I noticed that "wert", "art", and "shalt" were used with the subject "which" in the last line instead of which "thou." At first I thought this was just a grammatical mistake on the side of the hymn writer, but then I kept seeing such things where verbs in second person singular form are used with indefinite pronouns such as "which" or "who". Another example is give in this StackExchange question whose answer doesn't really answer my question.
So now I'm wondering, is it correct to use second person singular verbs with indefinite pronouns if the indefinite pronoun refers to a second person singular pronoun (in the hymn, "which" reffers to "Thee" from the last line)?
grammaticality pronouns archaic victorian-english
asked 2 hours ago
ElliotThomasElliotThomas
334
New contributor
ElliotThomas is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
I came across these lines in a hymn:
Cherubim and seraphim falling down before Thee,
Which wert and art, and ever more shalt be.
I noticed that "wert", "art", and "shalt" were used with the subject "which" in the last line instead of which "thou." At first I thought this was just a grammatical mistake on the side of the hymn writer, but then I kept seeing such things where verbs in second person singular form are used with indefinite pronouns such as "which" or "who". Another example is give in this StackExchange question whose answer doesn't really answer my question.
So now I'm wondering, is it correct to use second person singular verbs with indefinite pronouns if the indefinite pronoun refers to a second person singular pronoun (in the hymn, "which" reffers to "Thee" from the last line)?
grammaticality pronouns archaic victorian-english
asked 2 hours ago
ElliotThomasElliotThomas
334
New contributor
ElliotThomas is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
I came across these lines in a hymn:
Cherubim and seraphim falling down before Thee,
Which wert and art, and ever more shalt be.
I noticed that "wert", "art", and "shalt" were used with the subject "which" in the last line instead of which "thou." At first I thought this was just a grammatical mistake on the side of the hymn writer, but then I kept seeing such things where verbs in second person singular form are used with indefinite pronouns such as "which" or "who". Another example is give in this StackExchange question whose answer doesn't really answer my question.
So now I'm wondering, is it correct to use second person singular verbs with indefinite pronouns if the indefinite pronoun refers to a second person singular pronoun (in the hymn, "which" reffers to "Thee" from the last line)?
grammaticality pronouns archaic victorian-english
grammaticality pronouns archaic victorian-english
asked 2 hours ago
ElliotThomasElliotThomas
334
New contributor
ElliotThomas is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 2 hours ago
ElliotThomasElliotThomas
334
New contributor
ElliotThomas is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 2 hours ago
ElliotThomasElliotThomas
334
New contributor
ElliotThomas is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 2 hours ago
ElliotThomasElliotThomas
334
asked 2 hours ago
ElliotThomasElliotThomas
334
334
New contributor
ElliotThomas is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
ElliotThomas is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
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add a comment |
add a comment |
2 Answers
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Yes, "thou (...) who art" or "thee (...) who art" are correct.
I wasn't sure from the title whether you were asking about relative pronouns or interrogative pronouns, so I will discuss both in my post.
In the hymn that you quote, the relative pronoun "which" takes second-person singular agreement because its antecedent is the second-person singular pronoun "thee". This is a special thing that happened/happens in old-fashioned or formal English' related questions about this topic are What rules make “Remember me, who am your friend” grammatical? and "Me who is" or "me who am"?
In terms of interrogatives, "Who art..." would be possible in a sentence with "thou": "Who art thou?" In modern English, sentences of these type (e.g. "Who am I?") are best analyzed as having "who" as the (fronted) predicate rather than as the subject: a piece of evidence that "I" and not "who" is the subject of "Who am I?" is that we can't say *"Who am me", even though in predicate position "me" is usually possible. In older varieties of English, I'm not sure whether there is any clear way of establishing which word is the subject in questions like this.
answered 2 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
46.4k8109213
Even if "who" were the subject in "Who am I", wouldn't "I" be the predicate nominative, which is in the nominative form ("I" instead of "me"), anyway?
– ElliotThomas
57 mins ago
If you want to refute the theory that the subject in "Who am I?" is "who", why not consider "who is me"? After all, if the subject is "who", nothing forces the verb to be first-person, right?
– Rosie F
48 mins ago
@RosieF "Who is me?" would be incorrect because it would still be of the form "Subject linking_verb predicate_nominative". Since the predicate_nominative has to be in the nominative form, it would have to be "Who is I?", but then I guess the verb doesn't agree with "who," because, according to this answer, the verb for "who" needs to agree with whatever the "who" represents (in this case, "I"). Thus, it would have to be "Who am I?" regardless of whether the "Who" or the "I" are the subject, which is ambiguous as ambiguous as asking which letter is equal to what in "a = b".
– ElliotThomas
45 secs ago
add a comment |
Consider:
- He, who is your master, ...
- They, who are your masters, ...
- You, who are my master, ...
- You, who are my masters, ...
- I, who am your master, ...
I surely wouldn't say "I, who is your master, ..." or "You, who is my master, ...", or "They, who is my masters, ...".
answered 1 hour ago
Green Grasso HolmGreen Grasso Holm
2,261416
So is your answer to the original Q 'Yes' or 'No'?
– TrevorD
1 hour ago
Do you think I reached the conclusion that I arrived at in my response (that the form of the copula follows not "who" but its antecedent) and then expected it to be understood that the exact opposite conclusion should be drawn about the original question?
– Green Grasso Holm
56 mins ago
I'm sorry, but I understand neither your answer nor your comment - and I can see no clear "conclusion" in your answer. It is not clear to me how your answer relates to the Q. about "Who art". I also note that the questioner is a "New contributor" and that we are asked to be considerate about how we respond to new contributors.
– TrevorD
23 mins ago
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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Yes, "thou (...) who art" or "thee (...) who art" are correct.
I wasn't sure from the title whether you were asking about relative pronouns or interrogative pronouns, so I will discuss both in my post.
In the hymn that you quote, the relative pronoun "which" takes second-person singular agreement because its antecedent is the second-person singular pronoun "thee". This is a special thing that happened/happens in old-fashioned or formal English' related questions about this topic are What rules make “Remember me, who am your friend” grammatical? and "Me who is" or "me who am"?
In terms of interrogatives, "Who art..." would be possible in a sentence with "thou": "Who art thou?" In modern English, sentences of these type (e.g. "Who am I?") are best analyzed as having "who" as the (fronted) predicate rather than as the subject: a piece of evidence that "I" and not "who" is the subject of "Who am I?" is that we can't say *"Who am me", even though in predicate position "me" is usually possible. In older varieties of English, I'm not sure whether there is any clear way of establishing which word is the subject in questions like this.
answered 2 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
46.4k8109213
Even if "who" were the subject in "Who am I", wouldn't "I" be the predicate nominative, which is in the nominative form ("I" instead of "me"), anyway?
– ElliotThomas
57 mins ago
If you want to refute the theory that the subject in "Who am I?" is "who", why not consider "who is me"? After all, if the subject is "who", nothing forces the verb to be first-person, right?
– Rosie F
48 mins ago
@RosieF "Who is me?" would be incorrect because it would still be of the form "Subject linking_verb predicate_nominative". Since the predicate_nominative has to be in the nominative form, it would have to be "Who is I?", but then I guess the verb doesn't agree with "who," because, according to this answer, the verb for "who" needs to agree with whatever the "who" represents (in this case, "I"). Thus, it would have to be "Who am I?" regardless of whether the "Who" or the "I" are the subject, which is ambiguous as ambiguous as asking which letter is equal to what in "a = b".
– ElliotThomas
45 secs ago
add a comment |
Yes, "thou (...) who art" or "thee (...) who art" are correct.
I wasn't sure from the title whether you were asking about relative pronouns or interrogative pronouns, so I will discuss both in my post.
In the hymn that you quote, the relative pronoun "which" takes second-person singular agreement because its antecedent is the second-person singular pronoun "thee". This is a special thing that happened/happens in old-fashioned or formal English' related questions about this topic are What rules make “Remember me, who am your friend” grammatical? and "Me who is" or "me who am"?
In terms of interrogatives, "Who art..." would be possible in a sentence with "thou": "Who art thou?" In modern English, sentences of these type (e.g. "Who am I?") are best analyzed as having "who" as the (fronted) predicate rather than as the subject: a piece of evidence that "I" and not "who" is the subject of "Who am I?" is that we can't say *"Who am me", even though in predicate position "me" is usually possible. In older varieties of English, I'm not sure whether there is any clear way of establishing which word is the subject in questions like this.
answered 2 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
46.4k8109213
Even if "who" were the subject in "Who am I", wouldn't "I" be the predicate nominative, which is in the nominative form ("I" instead of "me"), anyway?
– ElliotThomas
57 mins ago
If you want to refute the theory that the subject in "Who am I?" is "who", why not consider "who is me"? After all, if the subject is "who", nothing forces the verb to be first-person, right?
– Rosie F
48 mins ago
@RosieF "Who is me?" would be incorrect because it would still be of the form "Subject linking_verb predicate_nominative". Since the predicate_nominative has to be in the nominative form, it would have to be "Who is I?", but then I guess the verb doesn't agree with "who," because, according to this answer, the verb for "who" needs to agree with whatever the "who" represents (in this case, "I"). Thus, it would have to be "Who am I?" regardless of whether the "Who" or the "I" are the subject, which is ambiguous as ambiguous as asking which letter is equal to what in "a = b".
– ElliotThomas
45 secs ago
add a comment |
Yes, "thou (...) who art" or "thee (...) who art" are correct.
I wasn't sure from the title whether you were asking about relative pronouns or interrogative pronouns, so I will discuss both in my post.
In the hymn that you quote, the relative pronoun "which" takes second-person singular agreement because its antecedent is the second-person singular pronoun "thee". This is a special thing that happened/happens in old-fashioned or formal English' related questions about this topic are What rules make “Remember me, who am your friend” grammatical? and "Me who is" or "me who am"?
In terms of interrogatives, "Who art..." would be possible in a sentence with "thou": "Who art thou?" In modern English, sentences of these type (e.g. "Who am I?") are best analyzed as having "who" as the (fronted) predicate rather than as the subject: a piece of evidence that "I" and not "who" is the subject of "Who am I?" is that we can't say *"Who am me", even though in predicate position "me" is usually possible. In older varieties of English, I'm not sure whether there is any clear way of establishing which word is the subject in questions like this.
answered 2 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
46.4k8109213
Yes, "thou (...) who art" or "thee (...) who art" are correct.
I wasn't sure from the title whether you were asking about relative pronouns or interrogative pronouns, so I will discuss both in my post.
In the hymn that you quote, the relative pronoun "which" takes second-person singular agreement because its antecedent is the second-person singular pronoun "thee". This is a special thing that happened/happens in old-fashioned or formal English' related questions about this topic are What rules make “Remember me, who am your friend” grammatical? and "Me who is" or "me who am"?
In terms of interrogatives, "Who art..." would be possible in a sentence with "thou": "Who art thou?" In modern English, sentences of these type (e.g. "Who am I?") are best analyzed as having "who" as the (fronted) predicate rather than as the subject: a piece of evidence that "I" and not "who" is the subject of "Who am I?" is that we can't say *"Who am me", even though in predicate position "me" is usually possible. In older varieties of English, I'm not sure whether there is any clear way of establishing which word is the subject in questions like this.
answered 2 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
46.4k8109213
answered 2 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
46.4k8109213
answered 2 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
46.4k8109213
answered 2 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
46.4k8109213
46.4k8109213
Even if "who" were the subject in "Who am I", wouldn't "I" be the predicate nominative, which is in the nominative form ("I" instead of "me"), anyway?
– ElliotThomas
57 mins ago
If you want to refute the theory that the subject in "Who am I?" is "who", why not consider "who is me"? After all, if the subject is "who", nothing forces the verb to be first-person, right?
– Rosie F
48 mins ago
@RosieF "Who is me?" would be incorrect because it would still be of the form "Subject linking_verb predicate_nominative". Since the predicate_nominative has to be in the nominative form, it would have to be "Who is I?", but then I guess the verb doesn't agree with "who," because, according to this answer, the verb for "who" needs to agree with whatever the "who" represents (in this case, "I"). Thus, it would have to be "Who am I?" regardless of whether the "Who" or the "I" are the subject, which is ambiguous as ambiguous as asking which letter is equal to what in "a = b".
– ElliotThomas
45 secs ago
add a comment |
Even if "who" were the subject in "Who am I", wouldn't "I" be the predicate nominative, which is in the nominative form ("I" instead of "me"), anyway?
– ElliotThomas
57 mins ago
If you want to refute the theory that the subject in "Who am I?" is "who", why not consider "who is me"? After all, if the subject is "who", nothing forces the verb to be first-person, right?
– Rosie F
48 mins ago
@RosieF "Who is me?" would be incorrect because it would still be of the form "Subject linking_verb predicate_nominative". Since the predicate_nominative has to be in the nominative form, it would have to be "Who is I?", but then I guess the verb doesn't agree with "who," because, according to this answer, the verb for "who" needs to agree with whatever the "who" represents (in this case, "I"). Thus, it would have to be "Who am I?" regardless of whether the "Who" or the "I" are the subject, which is ambiguous as ambiguous as asking which letter is equal to what in "a = b".
– ElliotThomas
45 secs ago
Even if "who" were the subject in "Who am I", wouldn't "I" be the predicate nominative, which is in the nominative form ("I" instead of "me"), anyway?
– ElliotThomas
57 mins ago
Even if "who" were the subject in "Who am I", wouldn't "I" be the predicate nominative, which is in the nominative form ("I" instead of "me"), anyway?
– ElliotThomas
57 mins ago
If you want to refute the theory that the subject in "Who am I?" is "who", why not consider "who is me"? After all, if the subject is "who", nothing forces the verb to be first-person, right?
– Rosie F
48 mins ago
If you want to refute the theory that the subject in "Who am I?" is "who", why not consider "who is me"? After all, if the subject is "who", nothing forces the verb to be first-person, right?
– Rosie F
48 mins ago
@RosieF "Who is me?" would be incorrect because it would still be of the form "Subject linking_verb predicate_nominative". Since the predicate_nominative has to be in the nominative form, it would have to be "Who is I?", but then I guess the verb doesn't agree with "who," because, according to this answer, the verb for "who" needs to agree with whatever the "who" represents (in this case, "I"). Thus, it would have to be "Who am I?" regardless of whether the "Who" or the "I" are the subject, which is ambiguous as ambiguous as asking which letter is equal to what in "a = b".
– ElliotThomas
45 secs ago
@RosieF "Who is me?" would be incorrect because it would still be of the form "Subject linking_verb predicate_nominative". Since the predicate_nominative has to be in the nominative form, it would have to be "Who is I?", but then I guess the verb doesn't agree with "who," because, according to this answer, the verb for "who" needs to agree with whatever the "who" represents (in this case, "I"). Thus, it would have to be "Who am I?" regardless of whether the "Who" or the "I" are the subject, which is ambiguous as ambiguous as asking which letter is equal to what in "a = b".
– ElliotThomas
45 secs ago
add a comment |
Consider:
- He, who is your master, ...
- They, who are your masters, ...
- You, who are my master, ...
- You, who are my masters, ...
- I, who am your master, ...
I surely wouldn't say "I, who is your master, ..." or "You, who is my master, ...", or "They, who is my masters, ...".
answered 1 hour ago
Green Grasso HolmGreen Grasso Holm
2,261416
So is your answer to the original Q 'Yes' or 'No'?
– TrevorD
1 hour ago
Do you think I reached the conclusion that I arrived at in my response (that the form of the copula follows not "who" but its antecedent) and then expected it to be understood that the exact opposite conclusion should be drawn about the original question?
– Green Grasso Holm
56 mins ago
I'm sorry, but I understand neither your answer nor your comment - and I can see no clear "conclusion" in your answer. It is not clear to me how your answer relates to the Q. about "Who art". I also note that the questioner is a "New contributor" and that we are asked to be considerate about how we respond to new contributors.
– TrevorD
23 mins ago
add a comment |
Consider:
- He, who is your master, ...
- They, who are your masters, ...
- You, who are my master, ...
- You, who are my masters, ...
- I, who am your master, ...
I surely wouldn't say "I, who is your master, ..." or "You, who is my master, ...", or "They, who is my masters, ...".
answered 1 hour ago
Green Grasso HolmGreen Grasso Holm
2,261416
So is your answer to the original Q 'Yes' or 'No'?
– TrevorD
1 hour ago
Do you think I reached the conclusion that I arrived at in my response (that the form of the copula follows not "who" but its antecedent) and then expected it to be understood that the exact opposite conclusion should be drawn about the original question?
– Green Grasso Holm
56 mins ago
I'm sorry, but I understand neither your answer nor your comment - and I can see no clear "conclusion" in your answer. It is not clear to me how your answer relates to the Q. about "Who art". I also note that the questioner is a "New contributor" and that we are asked to be considerate about how we respond to new contributors.
– TrevorD
23 mins ago
add a comment |
Consider:
- He, who is your master, ...
- They, who are your masters, ...
- You, who are my master, ...
- You, who are my masters, ...
- I, who am your master, ...
I surely wouldn't say "I, who is your master, ..." or "You, who is my master, ...", or "They, who is my masters, ...".
answered 1 hour ago
Green Grasso HolmGreen Grasso Holm
2,261416
Consider:
- He, who is your master, ...
- They, who are your masters, ...
- You, who are my master, ...
- You, who are my masters, ...
- I, who am your master, ...
I surely wouldn't say "I, who is your master, ..." or "You, who is my master, ...", or "They, who is my masters, ...".
answered 1 hour ago
Green Grasso HolmGreen Grasso Holm
2,261416
answered 1 hour ago
Green Grasso HolmGreen Grasso Holm
2,261416
answered 1 hour ago
Green Grasso HolmGreen Grasso Holm
2,261416
answered 1 hour ago
Green Grasso HolmGreen Grasso Holm
2,261416
2,261416
So is your answer to the original Q 'Yes' or 'No'?
– TrevorD
1 hour ago
Do you think I reached the conclusion that I arrived at in my response (that the form of the copula follows not "who" but its antecedent) and then expected it to be understood that the exact opposite conclusion should be drawn about the original question?
– Green Grasso Holm
56 mins ago
I'm sorry, but I understand neither your answer nor your comment - and I can see no clear "conclusion" in your answer. It is not clear to me how your answer relates to the Q. about "Who art". I also note that the questioner is a "New contributor" and that we are asked to be considerate about how we respond to new contributors.
– TrevorD
23 mins ago
add a comment |
So is your answer to the original Q 'Yes' or 'No'?
– TrevorD
1 hour ago
Do you think I reached the conclusion that I arrived at in my response (that the form of the copula follows not "who" but its antecedent) and then expected it to be understood that the exact opposite conclusion should be drawn about the original question?
– Green Grasso Holm
56 mins ago
I'm sorry, but I understand neither your answer nor your comment - and I can see no clear "conclusion" in your answer. It is not clear to me how your answer relates to the Q. about "Who art". I also note that the questioner is a "New contributor" and that we are asked to be considerate about how we respond to new contributors.
– TrevorD
23 mins ago
So is your answer to the original Q 'Yes' or 'No'?
– TrevorD
1 hour ago
So is your answer to the original Q 'Yes' or 'No'?
– TrevorD
1 hour ago
Do you think I reached the conclusion that I arrived at in my response (that the form of the copula follows not "who" but its antecedent) and then expected it to be understood that the exact opposite conclusion should be drawn about the original question?
– Green Grasso Holm
56 mins ago
Do you think I reached the conclusion that I arrived at in my response (that the form of the copula follows not "who" but its antecedent) and then expected it to be understood that the exact opposite conclusion should be drawn about the original question?
– Green Grasso Holm
56 mins ago
I'm sorry, but I understand neither your answer nor your comment - and I can see no clear "conclusion" in your answer. It is not clear to me how your answer relates to the Q. about "Who art". I also note that the questioner is a "New contributor" and that we are asked to be considerate about how we respond to new contributors.
– TrevorD
23 mins ago
I'm sorry, but I understand neither your answer nor your comment - and I can see no clear "conclusion" in your answer. It is not clear to me how your answer relates to the Q. about "Who art". I also note that the questioner is a "New contributor" and that we are asked to be considerate about how we respond to new contributors.
– TrevorD
23 mins ago
add a comment |
ElliotThomas is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
ElliotThomas is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
ElliotThomas is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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