Methods to measure inductance with high (1%) precision using standard equipment?












6












$begingroup$


I am modeling the fine behavior of interacting oscillatory circuits. I have looked up a couple of methods for measuring inductance. I believe I am following the procedure faithfully, but the values I obtain aren't as precise as I expect. This is, in principle, an elementary question, but ideally I'd like precision of 1% or less and I don't believe I am attaining it with the methods I can find. I have a Tektronix 1001B oscilloscope and a pretty standard signal generator.



First: Is a precision of 1% with this equipment unrealistic?



If not, I have followed the procedure for measuring inductance with a sinewave here: https://meettechniek.info/passive/inductance.html (I also tried the method where you tune the frequency until the inductor voltage is half the total voltage).



measuring inductance



I measure across two inductors in series; as a sanity check I also did both inductors separately. L1 is the kind of inductor that looks like a resistor (see the green thing in the photo below); Lcoil is a coiled inductor (see below). The nominal values are L1=220 uH and Lcoil=100 uH, so I expect a total of roughly Ltot=320 uH. All measurements are with f=95kHz because that is the frequency of operation.




  • R_s=100 Ohm gives Ltot=290, L1=174, and Lcoil=122 (L1+Lcoil=296)

  • R_s=56 Ohm gives Ltot=259, L1=174, and Lcoil=98 (L1+Lcoil=272)


Are these the best numbers that I can expect? The coil value changes by over 20%, and the total value varies by ~10%. I do not have an electronics background, so if there are some basic intuitive principles I am overlooking, please let me know!



inductors



Edit: I add a screencap of one of the calculations, which provides the values of the inductance and the inductor resistance.
calculation










share|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Buy an expensive LCR meter, or just buy a few very accurate inductors as a reference, then do A vs. B comparisons. With a signal generator and o-scope, you need known accurate references to judge the unknown values better. We cannot recommend manufactures or sources, as that violates site rules.
    $endgroup$
    – Sparky256
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Were you calculating the ESR of the inductors as well? How did those numbers look?
    $endgroup$
    – Elliot Alderson
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @ElliotAlderson I added a picture of the calculation for the total inductance for R_s=56. The ESR is sane for this calculation, but the value varies a lot in some calculations, which is also a source of unease.
    $endgroup$
    – KBL
    2 hours ago
















6












$begingroup$


I am modeling the fine behavior of interacting oscillatory circuits. I have looked up a couple of methods for measuring inductance. I believe I am following the procedure faithfully, but the values I obtain aren't as precise as I expect. This is, in principle, an elementary question, but ideally I'd like precision of 1% or less and I don't believe I am attaining it with the methods I can find. I have a Tektronix 1001B oscilloscope and a pretty standard signal generator.



First: Is a precision of 1% with this equipment unrealistic?



If not, I have followed the procedure for measuring inductance with a sinewave here: https://meettechniek.info/passive/inductance.html (I also tried the method where you tune the frequency until the inductor voltage is half the total voltage).



measuring inductance



I measure across two inductors in series; as a sanity check I also did both inductors separately. L1 is the kind of inductor that looks like a resistor (see the green thing in the photo below); Lcoil is a coiled inductor (see below). The nominal values are L1=220 uH and Lcoil=100 uH, so I expect a total of roughly Ltot=320 uH. All measurements are with f=95kHz because that is the frequency of operation.




  • R_s=100 Ohm gives Ltot=290, L1=174, and Lcoil=122 (L1+Lcoil=296)

  • R_s=56 Ohm gives Ltot=259, L1=174, and Lcoil=98 (L1+Lcoil=272)


Are these the best numbers that I can expect? The coil value changes by over 20%, and the total value varies by ~10%. I do not have an electronics background, so if there are some basic intuitive principles I am overlooking, please let me know!



inductors



Edit: I add a screencap of one of the calculations, which provides the values of the inductance and the inductor resistance.
calculation










share|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Buy an expensive LCR meter, or just buy a few very accurate inductors as a reference, then do A vs. B comparisons. With a signal generator and o-scope, you need known accurate references to judge the unknown values better. We cannot recommend manufactures or sources, as that violates site rules.
    $endgroup$
    – Sparky256
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Were you calculating the ESR of the inductors as well? How did those numbers look?
    $endgroup$
    – Elliot Alderson
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @ElliotAlderson I added a picture of the calculation for the total inductance for R_s=56. The ESR is sane for this calculation, but the value varies a lot in some calculations, which is also a source of unease.
    $endgroup$
    – KBL
    2 hours ago














6












6








6


2



$begingroup$


I am modeling the fine behavior of interacting oscillatory circuits. I have looked up a couple of methods for measuring inductance. I believe I am following the procedure faithfully, but the values I obtain aren't as precise as I expect. This is, in principle, an elementary question, but ideally I'd like precision of 1% or less and I don't believe I am attaining it with the methods I can find. I have a Tektronix 1001B oscilloscope and a pretty standard signal generator.



First: Is a precision of 1% with this equipment unrealistic?



If not, I have followed the procedure for measuring inductance with a sinewave here: https://meettechniek.info/passive/inductance.html (I also tried the method where you tune the frequency until the inductor voltage is half the total voltage).



measuring inductance



I measure across two inductors in series; as a sanity check I also did both inductors separately. L1 is the kind of inductor that looks like a resistor (see the green thing in the photo below); Lcoil is a coiled inductor (see below). The nominal values are L1=220 uH and Lcoil=100 uH, so I expect a total of roughly Ltot=320 uH. All measurements are with f=95kHz because that is the frequency of operation.




  • R_s=100 Ohm gives Ltot=290, L1=174, and Lcoil=122 (L1+Lcoil=296)

  • R_s=56 Ohm gives Ltot=259, L1=174, and Lcoil=98 (L1+Lcoil=272)


Are these the best numbers that I can expect? The coil value changes by over 20%, and the total value varies by ~10%. I do not have an electronics background, so if there are some basic intuitive principles I am overlooking, please let me know!



inductors



Edit: I add a screencap of one of the calculations, which provides the values of the inductance and the inductor resistance.
calculation










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




I am modeling the fine behavior of interacting oscillatory circuits. I have looked up a couple of methods for measuring inductance. I believe I am following the procedure faithfully, but the values I obtain aren't as precise as I expect. This is, in principle, an elementary question, but ideally I'd like precision of 1% or less and I don't believe I am attaining it with the methods I can find. I have a Tektronix 1001B oscilloscope and a pretty standard signal generator.



First: Is a precision of 1% with this equipment unrealistic?



If not, I have followed the procedure for measuring inductance with a sinewave here: https://meettechniek.info/passive/inductance.html (I also tried the method where you tune the frequency until the inductor voltage is half the total voltage).



measuring inductance



I measure across two inductors in series; as a sanity check I also did both inductors separately. L1 is the kind of inductor that looks like a resistor (see the green thing in the photo below); Lcoil is a coiled inductor (see below). The nominal values are L1=220 uH and Lcoil=100 uH, so I expect a total of roughly Ltot=320 uH. All measurements are with f=95kHz because that is the frequency of operation.




  • R_s=100 Ohm gives Ltot=290, L1=174, and Lcoil=122 (L1+Lcoil=296)

  • R_s=56 Ohm gives Ltot=259, L1=174, and Lcoil=98 (L1+Lcoil=272)


Are these the best numbers that I can expect? The coil value changes by over 20%, and the total value varies by ~10%. I do not have an electronics background, so if there are some basic intuitive principles I am overlooking, please let me know!



inductors



Edit: I add a screencap of one of the calculations, which provides the values of the inductance and the inductor resistance.
calculation







inductor measurement inductance-measurement






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 2 hours ago







KBL

















asked 3 hours ago









KBLKBL

484




484












  • $begingroup$
    Buy an expensive LCR meter, or just buy a few very accurate inductors as a reference, then do A vs. B comparisons. With a signal generator and o-scope, you need known accurate references to judge the unknown values better. We cannot recommend manufactures or sources, as that violates site rules.
    $endgroup$
    – Sparky256
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Were you calculating the ESR of the inductors as well? How did those numbers look?
    $endgroup$
    – Elliot Alderson
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @ElliotAlderson I added a picture of the calculation for the total inductance for R_s=56. The ESR is sane for this calculation, but the value varies a lot in some calculations, which is also a source of unease.
    $endgroup$
    – KBL
    2 hours ago


















  • $begingroup$
    Buy an expensive LCR meter, or just buy a few very accurate inductors as a reference, then do A vs. B comparisons. With a signal generator and o-scope, you need known accurate references to judge the unknown values better. We cannot recommend manufactures or sources, as that violates site rules.
    $endgroup$
    – Sparky256
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Were you calculating the ESR of the inductors as well? How did those numbers look?
    $endgroup$
    – Elliot Alderson
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @ElliotAlderson I added a picture of the calculation for the total inductance for R_s=56. The ESR is sane for this calculation, but the value varies a lot in some calculations, which is also a source of unease.
    $endgroup$
    – KBL
    2 hours ago
















$begingroup$
Buy an expensive LCR meter, or just buy a few very accurate inductors as a reference, then do A vs. B comparisons. With a signal generator and o-scope, you need known accurate references to judge the unknown values better. We cannot recommend manufactures or sources, as that violates site rules.
$endgroup$
– Sparky256
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
Buy an expensive LCR meter, or just buy a few very accurate inductors as a reference, then do A vs. B comparisons. With a signal generator and o-scope, you need known accurate references to judge the unknown values better. We cannot recommend manufactures or sources, as that violates site rules.
$endgroup$
– Sparky256
3 hours ago












$begingroup$
Were you calculating the ESR of the inductors as well? How did those numbers look?
$endgroup$
– Elliot Alderson
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
Were you calculating the ESR of the inductors as well? How did those numbers look?
$endgroup$
– Elliot Alderson
3 hours ago












$begingroup$
@ElliotAlderson I added a picture of the calculation for the total inductance for R_s=56. The ESR is sane for this calculation, but the value varies a lot in some calculations, which is also a source of unease.
$endgroup$
– KBL
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
@ElliotAlderson I added a picture of the calculation for the total inductance for R_s=56. The ESR is sane for this calculation, but the value varies a lot in some calculations, which is also a source of unease.
$endgroup$
– KBL
2 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















3












$begingroup$

The method you use is very error sensitive, ESR can be an issue but also determining the exact voltage ratios isn't easy.



I would use LC-parallel resonance:



$F_c=frac 1 {2pisqrt{LC}}$



Get a 1% (or better) accurate capacitor. If you do not have such a capacitor then just forget about the whole thing, you will not get the 1% accuracy.



Use a circuit like this:





schematic





simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



If you have a rough value for Lx then use the formula above to determine the resonance frequency in combination with the accurate capacitor C_1%.



You should aim for a frequency that the signal generator can easily generate, for example 1 MHz. Set the generator output voltage a couple of volts, the exact value does not matter because we want to determine the resonance frequency.



Vary the frequency of the generator and on the oscilloscope keep an eye on the signal amplitude. The frequency where the amplitude is the largest, that is the resonance frequency. Then use that frequency and the value of C_1% to determine the value of Lx? using the formula above.



If the signal generator is not very accurate (if it is an analog signal generator) then measure the frequency using your oscilloscope. You need a better than 1% accurate value for the frequency otherwise you cannot get the 1% overall accuracy. Your oscilloscope is a digital one so it can measure frequencies with more enough accuracy.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Thank you, this sounds like a plausible answer that I will have to try. We do not normally use 1% capacitors, but I think we have a few around. I will have to ask around. And if we don't have them, and aren't willing to buy them, then we aren't going to have the measurement.
    $endgroup$
    – KBL
    1 hour ago



















0












$begingroup$

You can use Series or Parallel resonance depending on what impedance you choose at resonance and what Q you expect from either mode. Here 100kHz is ~ 100 Ohms and Q of 30 dB implies 0.1 Ohm for DCR.



This can be limited by your driver GBW product. 300ohm (1+f) / GBW = Rout unless current limited.



enter image description here



here I chose 10nF Film due to very low ESR.
But I needed to buffer with output impedance lower than the DCR of the coil , if I want to measure that. The amplification is the Q or impedance ratio of the signal.



Here both L,DCR is found by rating series C and self winding capacitance from the notch SRF at 1MHz. Your mileage will vary.



Usually you want to test it in the frequency region it will be used. Then decide if you want to add DC bias current and AC couple the signal to isolate from your DC power supply.



Normally RLC meters use a constant current sine wave at 1kHz up to 1MHz. Then measure the voltage and phase to compute RLC.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$













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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    3












    $begingroup$

    The method you use is very error sensitive, ESR can be an issue but also determining the exact voltage ratios isn't easy.



    I would use LC-parallel resonance:



    $F_c=frac 1 {2pisqrt{LC}}$



    Get a 1% (or better) accurate capacitor. If you do not have such a capacitor then just forget about the whole thing, you will not get the 1% accuracy.



    Use a circuit like this:





    schematic





    simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



    If you have a rough value for Lx then use the formula above to determine the resonance frequency in combination with the accurate capacitor C_1%.



    You should aim for a frequency that the signal generator can easily generate, for example 1 MHz. Set the generator output voltage a couple of volts, the exact value does not matter because we want to determine the resonance frequency.



    Vary the frequency of the generator and on the oscilloscope keep an eye on the signal amplitude. The frequency where the amplitude is the largest, that is the resonance frequency. Then use that frequency and the value of C_1% to determine the value of Lx? using the formula above.



    If the signal generator is not very accurate (if it is an analog signal generator) then measure the frequency using your oscilloscope. You need a better than 1% accurate value for the frequency otherwise you cannot get the 1% overall accuracy. Your oscilloscope is a digital one so it can measure frequencies with more enough accuracy.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      Thank you, this sounds like a plausible answer that I will have to try. We do not normally use 1% capacitors, but I think we have a few around. I will have to ask around. And if we don't have them, and aren't willing to buy them, then we aren't going to have the measurement.
      $endgroup$
      – KBL
      1 hour ago
















    3












    $begingroup$

    The method you use is very error sensitive, ESR can be an issue but also determining the exact voltage ratios isn't easy.



    I would use LC-parallel resonance:



    $F_c=frac 1 {2pisqrt{LC}}$



    Get a 1% (or better) accurate capacitor. If you do not have such a capacitor then just forget about the whole thing, you will not get the 1% accuracy.



    Use a circuit like this:





    schematic





    simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



    If you have a rough value for Lx then use the formula above to determine the resonance frequency in combination with the accurate capacitor C_1%.



    You should aim for a frequency that the signal generator can easily generate, for example 1 MHz. Set the generator output voltage a couple of volts, the exact value does not matter because we want to determine the resonance frequency.



    Vary the frequency of the generator and on the oscilloscope keep an eye on the signal amplitude. The frequency where the amplitude is the largest, that is the resonance frequency. Then use that frequency and the value of C_1% to determine the value of Lx? using the formula above.



    If the signal generator is not very accurate (if it is an analog signal generator) then measure the frequency using your oscilloscope. You need a better than 1% accurate value for the frequency otherwise you cannot get the 1% overall accuracy. Your oscilloscope is a digital one so it can measure frequencies with more enough accuracy.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      Thank you, this sounds like a plausible answer that I will have to try. We do not normally use 1% capacitors, but I think we have a few around. I will have to ask around. And if we don't have them, and aren't willing to buy them, then we aren't going to have the measurement.
      $endgroup$
      – KBL
      1 hour ago














    3












    3








    3





    $begingroup$

    The method you use is very error sensitive, ESR can be an issue but also determining the exact voltage ratios isn't easy.



    I would use LC-parallel resonance:



    $F_c=frac 1 {2pisqrt{LC}}$



    Get a 1% (or better) accurate capacitor. If you do not have such a capacitor then just forget about the whole thing, you will not get the 1% accuracy.



    Use a circuit like this:





    schematic





    simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



    If you have a rough value for Lx then use the formula above to determine the resonance frequency in combination with the accurate capacitor C_1%.



    You should aim for a frequency that the signal generator can easily generate, for example 1 MHz. Set the generator output voltage a couple of volts, the exact value does not matter because we want to determine the resonance frequency.



    Vary the frequency of the generator and on the oscilloscope keep an eye on the signal amplitude. The frequency where the amplitude is the largest, that is the resonance frequency. Then use that frequency and the value of C_1% to determine the value of Lx? using the formula above.



    If the signal generator is not very accurate (if it is an analog signal generator) then measure the frequency using your oscilloscope. You need a better than 1% accurate value for the frequency otherwise you cannot get the 1% overall accuracy. Your oscilloscope is a digital one so it can measure frequencies with more enough accuracy.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$



    The method you use is very error sensitive, ESR can be an issue but also determining the exact voltage ratios isn't easy.



    I would use LC-parallel resonance:



    $F_c=frac 1 {2pisqrt{LC}}$



    Get a 1% (or better) accurate capacitor. If you do not have such a capacitor then just forget about the whole thing, you will not get the 1% accuracy.



    Use a circuit like this:





    schematic





    simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



    If you have a rough value for Lx then use the formula above to determine the resonance frequency in combination with the accurate capacitor C_1%.



    You should aim for a frequency that the signal generator can easily generate, for example 1 MHz. Set the generator output voltage a couple of volts, the exact value does not matter because we want to determine the resonance frequency.



    Vary the frequency of the generator and on the oscilloscope keep an eye on the signal amplitude. The frequency where the amplitude is the largest, that is the resonance frequency. Then use that frequency and the value of C_1% to determine the value of Lx? using the formula above.



    If the signal generator is not very accurate (if it is an analog signal generator) then measure the frequency using your oscilloscope. You need a better than 1% accurate value for the frequency otherwise you cannot get the 1% overall accuracy. Your oscilloscope is a digital one so it can measure frequencies with more enough accuracy.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 2 hours ago









    BimpelrekkieBimpelrekkie

    47.6k240104




    47.6k240104












    • $begingroup$
      Thank you, this sounds like a plausible answer that I will have to try. We do not normally use 1% capacitors, but I think we have a few around. I will have to ask around. And if we don't have them, and aren't willing to buy them, then we aren't going to have the measurement.
      $endgroup$
      – KBL
      1 hour ago


















    • $begingroup$
      Thank you, this sounds like a plausible answer that I will have to try. We do not normally use 1% capacitors, but I think we have a few around. I will have to ask around. And if we don't have them, and aren't willing to buy them, then we aren't going to have the measurement.
      $endgroup$
      – KBL
      1 hour ago
















    $begingroup$
    Thank you, this sounds like a plausible answer that I will have to try. We do not normally use 1% capacitors, but I think we have a few around. I will have to ask around. And if we don't have them, and aren't willing to buy them, then we aren't going to have the measurement.
    $endgroup$
    – KBL
    1 hour ago




    $begingroup$
    Thank you, this sounds like a plausible answer that I will have to try. We do not normally use 1% capacitors, but I think we have a few around. I will have to ask around. And if we don't have them, and aren't willing to buy them, then we aren't going to have the measurement.
    $endgroup$
    – KBL
    1 hour ago













    0












    $begingroup$

    You can use Series or Parallel resonance depending on what impedance you choose at resonance and what Q you expect from either mode. Here 100kHz is ~ 100 Ohms and Q of 30 dB implies 0.1 Ohm for DCR.



    This can be limited by your driver GBW product. 300ohm (1+f) / GBW = Rout unless current limited.



    enter image description here



    here I chose 10nF Film due to very low ESR.
    But I needed to buffer with output impedance lower than the DCR of the coil , if I want to measure that. The amplification is the Q or impedance ratio of the signal.



    Here both L,DCR is found by rating series C and self winding capacitance from the notch SRF at 1MHz. Your mileage will vary.



    Usually you want to test it in the frequency region it will be used. Then decide if you want to add DC bias current and AC couple the signal to isolate from your DC power supply.



    Normally RLC meters use a constant current sine wave at 1kHz up to 1MHz. Then measure the voltage and phase to compute RLC.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$


















      0












      $begingroup$

      You can use Series or Parallel resonance depending on what impedance you choose at resonance and what Q you expect from either mode. Here 100kHz is ~ 100 Ohms and Q of 30 dB implies 0.1 Ohm for DCR.



      This can be limited by your driver GBW product. 300ohm (1+f) / GBW = Rout unless current limited.



      enter image description here



      here I chose 10nF Film due to very low ESR.
      But I needed to buffer with output impedance lower than the DCR of the coil , if I want to measure that. The amplification is the Q or impedance ratio of the signal.



      Here both L,DCR is found by rating series C and self winding capacitance from the notch SRF at 1MHz. Your mileage will vary.



      Usually you want to test it in the frequency region it will be used. Then decide if you want to add DC bias current and AC couple the signal to isolate from your DC power supply.



      Normally RLC meters use a constant current sine wave at 1kHz up to 1MHz. Then measure the voltage and phase to compute RLC.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$
















        0












        0








        0





        $begingroup$

        You can use Series or Parallel resonance depending on what impedance you choose at resonance and what Q you expect from either mode. Here 100kHz is ~ 100 Ohms and Q of 30 dB implies 0.1 Ohm for DCR.



        This can be limited by your driver GBW product. 300ohm (1+f) / GBW = Rout unless current limited.



        enter image description here



        here I chose 10nF Film due to very low ESR.
        But I needed to buffer with output impedance lower than the DCR of the coil , if I want to measure that. The amplification is the Q or impedance ratio of the signal.



        Here both L,DCR is found by rating series C and self winding capacitance from the notch SRF at 1MHz. Your mileage will vary.



        Usually you want to test it in the frequency region it will be used. Then decide if you want to add DC bias current and AC couple the signal to isolate from your DC power supply.



        Normally RLC meters use a constant current sine wave at 1kHz up to 1MHz. Then measure the voltage and phase to compute RLC.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        You can use Series or Parallel resonance depending on what impedance you choose at resonance and what Q you expect from either mode. Here 100kHz is ~ 100 Ohms and Q of 30 dB implies 0.1 Ohm for DCR.



        This can be limited by your driver GBW product. 300ohm (1+f) / GBW = Rout unless current limited.



        enter image description here



        here I chose 10nF Film due to very low ESR.
        But I needed to buffer with output impedance lower than the DCR of the coil , if I want to measure that. The amplification is the Q or impedance ratio of the signal.



        Here both L,DCR is found by rating series C and self winding capacitance from the notch SRF at 1MHz. Your mileage will vary.



        Usually you want to test it in the frequency region it will be used. Then decide if you want to add DC bias current and AC couple the signal to isolate from your DC power supply.



        Normally RLC meters use a constant current sine wave at 1kHz up to 1MHz. Then measure the voltage and phase to compute RLC.







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        answered 22 mins ago









        Sunnyskyguy EE75Sunnyskyguy EE75

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