How do you know you have reached North or South Pole without GPS?
Having read about the resent foot traverse of Antarctica by Colin O'Brady I was wondering which means the polar explorers of former, pre-GPS times did use to determine that they hat reached North or South Pole. Obviously, you cannot use a compass since it would guide you to magnetic north or south and not to the pole itself.
So what means have they been using or (to make it a bit more open) could they have used?
navigation history
add a comment |
Having read about the resent foot traverse of Antarctica by Colin O'Brady I was wondering which means the polar explorers of former, pre-GPS times did use to determine that they hat reached North or South Pole. Obviously, you cannot use a compass since it would guide you to magnetic north or south and not to the pole itself.
So what means have they been using or (to make it a bit more open) could they have used?
navigation history
1
Related How much distance is there between True North and Magnetic North Poles? & When is the best time of year to find the North Pole? & Calculate true north with a compass and map
– James Jenkins
yesterday
5
North Pole: ask Santa's elves. South Pole: not sure.
– David Richerby
19 hours ago
Same question on Astronomy.SE: How would I measure that I'm at a pole?
– dotancohen
6 hours ago
add a comment |
Having read about the resent foot traverse of Antarctica by Colin O'Brady I was wondering which means the polar explorers of former, pre-GPS times did use to determine that they hat reached North or South Pole. Obviously, you cannot use a compass since it would guide you to magnetic north or south and not to the pole itself.
So what means have they been using or (to make it a bit more open) could they have used?
navigation history
Having read about the resent foot traverse of Antarctica by Colin O'Brady I was wondering which means the polar explorers of former, pre-GPS times did use to determine that they hat reached North or South Pole. Obviously, you cannot use a compass since it would guide you to magnetic north or south and not to the pole itself.
So what means have they been using or (to make it a bit more open) could they have used?
navigation history
navigation history
edited yesterday
Charlie Brumbaugh
46.3k16130258
46.3k16130258
asked yesterday
Benedikt BauerBenedikt Bauer
6,52512754
6,52512754
1
Related How much distance is there between True North and Magnetic North Poles? & When is the best time of year to find the North Pole? & Calculate true north with a compass and map
– James Jenkins
yesterday
5
North Pole: ask Santa's elves. South Pole: not sure.
– David Richerby
19 hours ago
Same question on Astronomy.SE: How would I measure that I'm at a pole?
– dotancohen
6 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Related How much distance is there between True North and Magnetic North Poles? & When is the best time of year to find the North Pole? & Calculate true north with a compass and map
– James Jenkins
yesterday
5
North Pole: ask Santa's elves. South Pole: not sure.
– David Richerby
19 hours ago
Same question on Astronomy.SE: How would I measure that I'm at a pole?
– dotancohen
6 hours ago
1
1
Related How much distance is there between True North and Magnetic North Poles? & When is the best time of year to find the North Pole? & Calculate true north with a compass and map
– James Jenkins
yesterday
Related How much distance is there between True North and Magnetic North Poles? & When is the best time of year to find the North Pole? & Calculate true north with a compass and map
– James Jenkins
yesterday
5
5
North Pole: ask Santa's elves. South Pole: not sure.
– David Richerby
19 hours ago
North Pole: ask Santa's elves. South Pole: not sure.
– David Richerby
19 hours ago
Same question on Astronomy.SE: How would I measure that I'm at a pole?
– dotancohen
6 hours ago
Same question on Astronomy.SE: How would I measure that I'm at a pole?
– dotancohen
6 hours ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
I'll expand a bit on how one would use a sextant to locate the north pole.
The basic arrangement needs a horizontal reflective plane, for which Amundsen used a pool of mercury. A precisely weighted mirror could work also, but a pool of mercury is more robust and doesn't go out of calibration. Sextant measures the angular distance between two visible objects, in this case between the sun and its reflection in the horizontal surface.
This angle is twice the elevation of sun above the horizon. If you are standing at exactly the north (or south) pole, sun will remain at the same elevation all through the day. There will be a small linear change due to earth's orbit around the sun, but no cyclic 24-hour change because you are on the earths rotational axis.
Now, you can take multiple measurements over the day and draw a graph. Even though sun remains at the same elevation, it will still move in a circle around you, so each measurement corresponds to a different direction.
If the elevation graph is flat, you have found the pole. If it however resembles a sine wave, you can use the information to move closer to the pole. The direction where the sun's elevation is lowest is north, and the distance to the true north pole can be calculated from the difference between lowest and highest elevation.
add a comment |
Amundsen's team used a meter on their sledges to get close (dead reckoning) and then sextants to confirm the position.
Using Amundsen's diary, Roland Huntford (in The Amundsen Photographs) describes the photo as "Shooting the sun at the South Geographical Pole. Amundsen (left) is holding a sextant. Helmer Hanssen (right) is bending over the artificial horizon, which is a tray of mercury. Amundsen is lining up the direct image of the sun with its reflection in the surface of the mercury."
Amundsen's original South Pole Station
When their sledge meters indicated they should be at the right place, they stopped at the location marked "Sledge" on the map at right (from The South Pole) to determine their position more accurately from sun shots. Amundsen then sent three men out on sledges at 90° intervals. Each went about 10 statute miles; in this way he assured that his party had encircled the Pole.
...
At Polheim the team took a series of hourly observations for a 24-hour period to confirm their location
Amundsen's original South Pole Station
For the next three days the men worked to fix the exact position of the pole; after the conflicting and disputed claims of Cook and Peary in the north, Amundsen wanted to leave unmistakable markers for Scott.[139] After taking several sextant readings at different times of day, Bjaaland, Wisting and Hassel skied out in different directions to "box" the pole; Amundsen reasoned that between them they would bracket the exact point.[140] Finally the party pitched a tent, which they called Polheim, as near as possible to the actual pole as they could calculate by their observations. In the tent Amundsen left equipment for Scott, and a letter addressed to King Haakon which he requested Scott to deliver
Wikipedia
People still use sextants today, and they are still the best way to find latitude/longitude without GPS so it seems like is what one would use.
1
Is it necessary to directly look into the sun using this method?
– M.Herzkamp
3 hours ago
add a comment |
Take a time-lapse photo of the sky directly overhead at night. The moving stars will form circles in your photo, and if the center of the circles is directly overhead, you are there.
New contributor
11
In theory, this would work. In practice, an error of just one second of arc in aiming your camera upwards will result in an error of more than 300 meters in position. Sextants are designed for high-precision aiming; camera tripods aren't.
– Mark
yesterday
1
A comment on Mark's answer (above). An arcsecond corresponds to about 100 feet at the Earth's surface, not 300 meters. But his point is perfectly valid of course.
– Patrick Wallace
yesterday
27
All pre-GPS expeditions tried hard to be outta there before night.
– kubanczyk
23 hours ago
7
To clarify kubanczyk's comment: The poles are the lands of the midnight sun. If there are any stars visible, that means it is winter; you really don't want to walk to the South Pole in winter.
– Martin Bonner
5 hours ago
add a comment |
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
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I'll expand a bit on how one would use a sextant to locate the north pole.
The basic arrangement needs a horizontal reflective plane, for which Amundsen used a pool of mercury. A precisely weighted mirror could work also, but a pool of mercury is more robust and doesn't go out of calibration. Sextant measures the angular distance between two visible objects, in this case between the sun and its reflection in the horizontal surface.
This angle is twice the elevation of sun above the horizon. If you are standing at exactly the north (or south) pole, sun will remain at the same elevation all through the day. There will be a small linear change due to earth's orbit around the sun, but no cyclic 24-hour change because you are on the earths rotational axis.
Now, you can take multiple measurements over the day and draw a graph. Even though sun remains at the same elevation, it will still move in a circle around you, so each measurement corresponds to a different direction.
If the elevation graph is flat, you have found the pole. If it however resembles a sine wave, you can use the information to move closer to the pole. The direction where the sun's elevation is lowest is north, and the distance to the true north pole can be calculated from the difference between lowest and highest elevation.
add a comment |
I'll expand a bit on how one would use a sextant to locate the north pole.
The basic arrangement needs a horizontal reflective plane, for which Amundsen used a pool of mercury. A precisely weighted mirror could work also, but a pool of mercury is more robust and doesn't go out of calibration. Sextant measures the angular distance between two visible objects, in this case between the sun and its reflection in the horizontal surface.
This angle is twice the elevation of sun above the horizon. If you are standing at exactly the north (or south) pole, sun will remain at the same elevation all through the day. There will be a small linear change due to earth's orbit around the sun, but no cyclic 24-hour change because you are on the earths rotational axis.
Now, you can take multiple measurements over the day and draw a graph. Even though sun remains at the same elevation, it will still move in a circle around you, so each measurement corresponds to a different direction.
If the elevation graph is flat, you have found the pole. If it however resembles a sine wave, you can use the information to move closer to the pole. The direction where the sun's elevation is lowest is north, and the distance to the true north pole can be calculated from the difference between lowest and highest elevation.
add a comment |
I'll expand a bit on how one would use a sextant to locate the north pole.
The basic arrangement needs a horizontal reflective plane, for which Amundsen used a pool of mercury. A precisely weighted mirror could work also, but a pool of mercury is more robust and doesn't go out of calibration. Sextant measures the angular distance between two visible objects, in this case between the sun and its reflection in the horizontal surface.
This angle is twice the elevation of sun above the horizon. If you are standing at exactly the north (or south) pole, sun will remain at the same elevation all through the day. There will be a small linear change due to earth's orbit around the sun, but no cyclic 24-hour change because you are on the earths rotational axis.
Now, you can take multiple measurements over the day and draw a graph. Even though sun remains at the same elevation, it will still move in a circle around you, so each measurement corresponds to a different direction.
If the elevation graph is flat, you have found the pole. If it however resembles a sine wave, you can use the information to move closer to the pole. The direction where the sun's elevation is lowest is north, and the distance to the true north pole can be calculated from the difference between lowest and highest elevation.
I'll expand a bit on how one would use a sextant to locate the north pole.
The basic arrangement needs a horizontal reflective plane, for which Amundsen used a pool of mercury. A precisely weighted mirror could work also, but a pool of mercury is more robust and doesn't go out of calibration. Sextant measures the angular distance between two visible objects, in this case between the sun and its reflection in the horizontal surface.
This angle is twice the elevation of sun above the horizon. If you are standing at exactly the north (or south) pole, sun will remain at the same elevation all through the day. There will be a small linear change due to earth's orbit around the sun, but no cyclic 24-hour change because you are on the earths rotational axis.
Now, you can take multiple measurements over the day and draw a graph. Even though sun remains at the same elevation, it will still move in a circle around you, so each measurement corresponds to a different direction.
If the elevation graph is flat, you have found the pole. If it however resembles a sine wave, you can use the information to move closer to the pole. The direction where the sun's elevation is lowest is north, and the distance to the true north pole can be calculated from the difference between lowest and highest elevation.
answered yesterday
jpajpa
3963
3963
add a comment |
add a comment |
Amundsen's team used a meter on their sledges to get close (dead reckoning) and then sextants to confirm the position.
Using Amundsen's diary, Roland Huntford (in The Amundsen Photographs) describes the photo as "Shooting the sun at the South Geographical Pole. Amundsen (left) is holding a sextant. Helmer Hanssen (right) is bending over the artificial horizon, which is a tray of mercury. Amundsen is lining up the direct image of the sun with its reflection in the surface of the mercury."
Amundsen's original South Pole Station
When their sledge meters indicated they should be at the right place, they stopped at the location marked "Sledge" on the map at right (from The South Pole) to determine their position more accurately from sun shots. Amundsen then sent three men out on sledges at 90° intervals. Each went about 10 statute miles; in this way he assured that his party had encircled the Pole.
...
At Polheim the team took a series of hourly observations for a 24-hour period to confirm their location
Amundsen's original South Pole Station
For the next three days the men worked to fix the exact position of the pole; after the conflicting and disputed claims of Cook and Peary in the north, Amundsen wanted to leave unmistakable markers for Scott.[139] After taking several sextant readings at different times of day, Bjaaland, Wisting and Hassel skied out in different directions to "box" the pole; Amundsen reasoned that between them they would bracket the exact point.[140] Finally the party pitched a tent, which they called Polheim, as near as possible to the actual pole as they could calculate by their observations. In the tent Amundsen left equipment for Scott, and a letter addressed to King Haakon which he requested Scott to deliver
Wikipedia
People still use sextants today, and they are still the best way to find latitude/longitude without GPS so it seems like is what one would use.
1
Is it necessary to directly look into the sun using this method?
– M.Herzkamp
3 hours ago
add a comment |
Amundsen's team used a meter on their sledges to get close (dead reckoning) and then sextants to confirm the position.
Using Amundsen's diary, Roland Huntford (in The Amundsen Photographs) describes the photo as "Shooting the sun at the South Geographical Pole. Amundsen (left) is holding a sextant. Helmer Hanssen (right) is bending over the artificial horizon, which is a tray of mercury. Amundsen is lining up the direct image of the sun with its reflection in the surface of the mercury."
Amundsen's original South Pole Station
When their sledge meters indicated they should be at the right place, they stopped at the location marked "Sledge" on the map at right (from The South Pole) to determine their position more accurately from sun shots. Amundsen then sent three men out on sledges at 90° intervals. Each went about 10 statute miles; in this way he assured that his party had encircled the Pole.
...
At Polheim the team took a series of hourly observations for a 24-hour period to confirm their location
Amundsen's original South Pole Station
For the next three days the men worked to fix the exact position of the pole; after the conflicting and disputed claims of Cook and Peary in the north, Amundsen wanted to leave unmistakable markers for Scott.[139] After taking several sextant readings at different times of day, Bjaaland, Wisting and Hassel skied out in different directions to "box" the pole; Amundsen reasoned that between them they would bracket the exact point.[140] Finally the party pitched a tent, which they called Polheim, as near as possible to the actual pole as they could calculate by their observations. In the tent Amundsen left equipment for Scott, and a letter addressed to King Haakon which he requested Scott to deliver
Wikipedia
People still use sextants today, and they are still the best way to find latitude/longitude without GPS so it seems like is what one would use.
1
Is it necessary to directly look into the sun using this method?
– M.Herzkamp
3 hours ago
add a comment |
Amundsen's team used a meter on their sledges to get close (dead reckoning) and then sextants to confirm the position.
Using Amundsen's diary, Roland Huntford (in The Amundsen Photographs) describes the photo as "Shooting the sun at the South Geographical Pole. Amundsen (left) is holding a sextant. Helmer Hanssen (right) is bending over the artificial horizon, which is a tray of mercury. Amundsen is lining up the direct image of the sun with its reflection in the surface of the mercury."
Amundsen's original South Pole Station
When their sledge meters indicated they should be at the right place, they stopped at the location marked "Sledge" on the map at right (from The South Pole) to determine their position more accurately from sun shots. Amundsen then sent three men out on sledges at 90° intervals. Each went about 10 statute miles; in this way he assured that his party had encircled the Pole.
...
At Polheim the team took a series of hourly observations for a 24-hour period to confirm their location
Amundsen's original South Pole Station
For the next three days the men worked to fix the exact position of the pole; after the conflicting and disputed claims of Cook and Peary in the north, Amundsen wanted to leave unmistakable markers for Scott.[139] After taking several sextant readings at different times of day, Bjaaland, Wisting and Hassel skied out in different directions to "box" the pole; Amundsen reasoned that between them they would bracket the exact point.[140] Finally the party pitched a tent, which they called Polheim, as near as possible to the actual pole as they could calculate by their observations. In the tent Amundsen left equipment for Scott, and a letter addressed to King Haakon which he requested Scott to deliver
Wikipedia
People still use sextants today, and they are still the best way to find latitude/longitude without GPS so it seems like is what one would use.
Amundsen's team used a meter on their sledges to get close (dead reckoning) and then sextants to confirm the position.
Using Amundsen's diary, Roland Huntford (in The Amundsen Photographs) describes the photo as "Shooting the sun at the South Geographical Pole. Amundsen (left) is holding a sextant. Helmer Hanssen (right) is bending over the artificial horizon, which is a tray of mercury. Amundsen is lining up the direct image of the sun with its reflection in the surface of the mercury."
Amundsen's original South Pole Station
When their sledge meters indicated they should be at the right place, they stopped at the location marked "Sledge" on the map at right (from The South Pole) to determine their position more accurately from sun shots. Amundsen then sent three men out on sledges at 90° intervals. Each went about 10 statute miles; in this way he assured that his party had encircled the Pole.
...
At Polheim the team took a series of hourly observations for a 24-hour period to confirm their location
Amundsen's original South Pole Station
For the next three days the men worked to fix the exact position of the pole; after the conflicting and disputed claims of Cook and Peary in the north, Amundsen wanted to leave unmistakable markers for Scott.[139] After taking several sextant readings at different times of day, Bjaaland, Wisting and Hassel skied out in different directions to "box" the pole; Amundsen reasoned that between them they would bracket the exact point.[140] Finally the party pitched a tent, which they called Polheim, as near as possible to the actual pole as they could calculate by their observations. In the tent Amundsen left equipment for Scott, and a letter addressed to King Haakon which he requested Scott to deliver
Wikipedia
People still use sextants today, and they are still the best way to find latitude/longitude without GPS so it seems like is what one would use.
edited 20 hours ago
wizzwizz4
1033
1033
answered yesterday
Charlie BrumbaughCharlie Brumbaugh
46.3k16130258
46.3k16130258
1
Is it necessary to directly look into the sun using this method?
– M.Herzkamp
3 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Is it necessary to directly look into the sun using this method?
– M.Herzkamp
3 hours ago
1
1
Is it necessary to directly look into the sun using this method?
– M.Herzkamp
3 hours ago
Is it necessary to directly look into the sun using this method?
– M.Herzkamp
3 hours ago
add a comment |
Take a time-lapse photo of the sky directly overhead at night. The moving stars will form circles in your photo, and if the center of the circles is directly overhead, you are there.
New contributor
11
In theory, this would work. In practice, an error of just one second of arc in aiming your camera upwards will result in an error of more than 300 meters in position. Sextants are designed for high-precision aiming; camera tripods aren't.
– Mark
yesterday
1
A comment on Mark's answer (above). An arcsecond corresponds to about 100 feet at the Earth's surface, not 300 meters. But his point is perfectly valid of course.
– Patrick Wallace
yesterday
27
All pre-GPS expeditions tried hard to be outta there before night.
– kubanczyk
23 hours ago
7
To clarify kubanczyk's comment: The poles are the lands of the midnight sun. If there are any stars visible, that means it is winter; you really don't want to walk to the South Pole in winter.
– Martin Bonner
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Take a time-lapse photo of the sky directly overhead at night. The moving stars will form circles in your photo, and if the center of the circles is directly overhead, you are there.
New contributor
11
In theory, this would work. In practice, an error of just one second of arc in aiming your camera upwards will result in an error of more than 300 meters in position. Sextants are designed for high-precision aiming; camera tripods aren't.
– Mark
yesterday
1
A comment on Mark's answer (above). An arcsecond corresponds to about 100 feet at the Earth's surface, not 300 meters. But his point is perfectly valid of course.
– Patrick Wallace
yesterday
27
All pre-GPS expeditions tried hard to be outta there before night.
– kubanczyk
23 hours ago
7
To clarify kubanczyk's comment: The poles are the lands of the midnight sun. If there are any stars visible, that means it is winter; you really don't want to walk to the South Pole in winter.
– Martin Bonner
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Take a time-lapse photo of the sky directly overhead at night. The moving stars will form circles in your photo, and if the center of the circles is directly overhead, you are there.
New contributor
Take a time-lapse photo of the sky directly overhead at night. The moving stars will form circles in your photo, and if the center of the circles is directly overhead, you are there.
New contributor
New contributor
answered yesterday
BruceBruce
311
311
New contributor
New contributor
11
In theory, this would work. In practice, an error of just one second of arc in aiming your camera upwards will result in an error of more than 300 meters in position. Sextants are designed for high-precision aiming; camera tripods aren't.
– Mark
yesterday
1
A comment on Mark's answer (above). An arcsecond corresponds to about 100 feet at the Earth's surface, not 300 meters. But his point is perfectly valid of course.
– Patrick Wallace
yesterday
27
All pre-GPS expeditions tried hard to be outta there before night.
– kubanczyk
23 hours ago
7
To clarify kubanczyk's comment: The poles are the lands of the midnight sun. If there are any stars visible, that means it is winter; you really don't want to walk to the South Pole in winter.
– Martin Bonner
5 hours ago
add a comment |
11
In theory, this would work. In practice, an error of just one second of arc in aiming your camera upwards will result in an error of more than 300 meters in position. Sextants are designed for high-precision aiming; camera tripods aren't.
– Mark
yesterday
1
A comment on Mark's answer (above). An arcsecond corresponds to about 100 feet at the Earth's surface, not 300 meters. But his point is perfectly valid of course.
– Patrick Wallace
yesterday
27
All pre-GPS expeditions tried hard to be outta there before night.
– kubanczyk
23 hours ago
7
To clarify kubanczyk's comment: The poles are the lands of the midnight sun. If there are any stars visible, that means it is winter; you really don't want to walk to the South Pole in winter.
– Martin Bonner
5 hours ago
11
11
In theory, this would work. In practice, an error of just one second of arc in aiming your camera upwards will result in an error of more than 300 meters in position. Sextants are designed for high-precision aiming; camera tripods aren't.
– Mark
yesterday
In theory, this would work. In practice, an error of just one second of arc in aiming your camera upwards will result in an error of more than 300 meters in position. Sextants are designed for high-precision aiming; camera tripods aren't.
– Mark
yesterday
1
1
A comment on Mark's answer (above). An arcsecond corresponds to about 100 feet at the Earth's surface, not 300 meters. But his point is perfectly valid of course.
– Patrick Wallace
yesterday
A comment on Mark's answer (above). An arcsecond corresponds to about 100 feet at the Earth's surface, not 300 meters. But his point is perfectly valid of course.
– Patrick Wallace
yesterday
27
27
All pre-GPS expeditions tried hard to be outta there before night.
– kubanczyk
23 hours ago
All pre-GPS expeditions tried hard to be outta there before night.
– kubanczyk
23 hours ago
7
7
To clarify kubanczyk's comment: The poles are the lands of the midnight sun. If there are any stars visible, that means it is winter; you really don't want to walk to the South Pole in winter.
– Martin Bonner
5 hours ago
To clarify kubanczyk's comment: The poles are the lands of the midnight sun. If there are any stars visible, that means it is winter; you really don't want to walk to the South Pole in winter.
– Martin Bonner
5 hours ago
add a comment |
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1
Related How much distance is there between True North and Magnetic North Poles? & When is the best time of year to find the North Pole? & Calculate true north with a compass and map
– James Jenkins
yesterday
5
North Pole: ask Santa's elves. South Pole: not sure.
– David Richerby
19 hours ago
Same question on Astronomy.SE: How would I measure that I'm at a pole?
– dotancohen
6 hours ago