Where did Neanderthals and Denisovan Man come from?












2












$begingroup$


Neanderthals, Denisovans and our species (Homo sapiens) are commonly cited as closely related subspecies, even interbreeding with each other. Yet our species theoretically didn't migrate out of Africa until about 60,000 years ago, whereas Neanderthals were living in Europe a few hundred thousand years ago. Did they evolve out of Homo habilis, which migrated out of Africa before our species?



This suggests that Neanderthals must have evolved from Homo sapiens (or perhaps Homo habilis) stock in Africa before migrating out of Africa to Europe. However, conventional wisdom suggests that Neanderthal morphology was shaped by Ice Age Europe.



One possibility is that they evolved into a distinct subspecies in Africa, then migrated into Europe, where continuing evolution turned them into the familiar Neanderthals. But wouldn't this mean that Homo sapiens (the ancestor of Neanderthals) then migrated out of Africa hundreds of thousands of years ago?



Is this simply a question that hasn't been resolved, or is there a popular theory that explains the origin of Neanderthals and Denisovans?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    You are calling Homo sapiens both 1) the current homo lineage and 2) the ancestor of Homo sapien and Homo neanderthalis, which make it a little hard to understand (you might want to have a look at this post). It gets even more confusing that most people call both neanderthals and modern humans as Homo sapiens (H. sapiens sapiens and H. sapiens neanderthalis).
    $endgroup$
    – Remi.b
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    You just made my point. The precise classification and relationship between Homo sapiens and H. neandertalensis isn't really known. So where did Neanderthals come from? Did they evolve in Africa or Europe, and from WHAT did they evolve? Homo habilis? That's what I asked.
    $endgroup$
    – David Blomstrom
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Are you asking whether we have a name for the MRCA of sapiens and neanderthals?
    $endgroup$
    – Remi.b
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Yes, knowing the MRCA would be helpful. If Neanderthals evolved in Europe, and Homo sapiens didn't enter Europe until less than 60,000 years ago, then Neanderthals must have evolved from Homo habilis or some other ancient human.
    $endgroup$
    – David Blomstrom
    6 hours ago
















2












$begingroup$


Neanderthals, Denisovans and our species (Homo sapiens) are commonly cited as closely related subspecies, even interbreeding with each other. Yet our species theoretically didn't migrate out of Africa until about 60,000 years ago, whereas Neanderthals were living in Europe a few hundred thousand years ago. Did they evolve out of Homo habilis, which migrated out of Africa before our species?



This suggests that Neanderthals must have evolved from Homo sapiens (or perhaps Homo habilis) stock in Africa before migrating out of Africa to Europe. However, conventional wisdom suggests that Neanderthal morphology was shaped by Ice Age Europe.



One possibility is that they evolved into a distinct subspecies in Africa, then migrated into Europe, where continuing evolution turned them into the familiar Neanderthals. But wouldn't this mean that Homo sapiens (the ancestor of Neanderthals) then migrated out of Africa hundreds of thousands of years ago?



Is this simply a question that hasn't been resolved, or is there a popular theory that explains the origin of Neanderthals and Denisovans?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    You are calling Homo sapiens both 1) the current homo lineage and 2) the ancestor of Homo sapien and Homo neanderthalis, which make it a little hard to understand (you might want to have a look at this post). It gets even more confusing that most people call both neanderthals and modern humans as Homo sapiens (H. sapiens sapiens and H. sapiens neanderthalis).
    $endgroup$
    – Remi.b
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    You just made my point. The precise classification and relationship between Homo sapiens and H. neandertalensis isn't really known. So where did Neanderthals come from? Did they evolve in Africa or Europe, and from WHAT did they evolve? Homo habilis? That's what I asked.
    $endgroup$
    – David Blomstrom
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Are you asking whether we have a name for the MRCA of sapiens and neanderthals?
    $endgroup$
    – Remi.b
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Yes, knowing the MRCA would be helpful. If Neanderthals evolved in Europe, and Homo sapiens didn't enter Europe until less than 60,000 years ago, then Neanderthals must have evolved from Homo habilis or some other ancient human.
    $endgroup$
    – David Blomstrom
    6 hours ago














2












2








2


1



$begingroup$


Neanderthals, Denisovans and our species (Homo sapiens) are commonly cited as closely related subspecies, even interbreeding with each other. Yet our species theoretically didn't migrate out of Africa until about 60,000 years ago, whereas Neanderthals were living in Europe a few hundred thousand years ago. Did they evolve out of Homo habilis, which migrated out of Africa before our species?



This suggests that Neanderthals must have evolved from Homo sapiens (or perhaps Homo habilis) stock in Africa before migrating out of Africa to Europe. However, conventional wisdom suggests that Neanderthal morphology was shaped by Ice Age Europe.



One possibility is that they evolved into a distinct subspecies in Africa, then migrated into Europe, where continuing evolution turned them into the familiar Neanderthals. But wouldn't this mean that Homo sapiens (the ancestor of Neanderthals) then migrated out of Africa hundreds of thousands of years ago?



Is this simply a question that hasn't been resolved, or is there a popular theory that explains the origin of Neanderthals and Denisovans?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




Neanderthals, Denisovans and our species (Homo sapiens) are commonly cited as closely related subspecies, even interbreeding with each other. Yet our species theoretically didn't migrate out of Africa until about 60,000 years ago, whereas Neanderthals were living in Europe a few hundred thousand years ago. Did they evolve out of Homo habilis, which migrated out of Africa before our species?



This suggests that Neanderthals must have evolved from Homo sapiens (or perhaps Homo habilis) stock in Africa before migrating out of Africa to Europe. However, conventional wisdom suggests that Neanderthal morphology was shaped by Ice Age Europe.



One possibility is that they evolved into a distinct subspecies in Africa, then migrated into Europe, where continuing evolution turned them into the familiar Neanderthals. But wouldn't this mean that Homo sapiens (the ancestor of Neanderthals) then migrated out of Africa hundreds of thousands of years ago?



Is this simply a question that hasn't been resolved, or is there a popular theory that explains the origin of Neanderthals and Denisovans?







evolution human






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 7 hours ago







David Blomstrom

















asked 9 hours ago









David BlomstromDavid Blomstrom

1,588412




1,588412












  • $begingroup$
    You are calling Homo sapiens both 1) the current homo lineage and 2) the ancestor of Homo sapien and Homo neanderthalis, which make it a little hard to understand (you might want to have a look at this post). It gets even more confusing that most people call both neanderthals and modern humans as Homo sapiens (H. sapiens sapiens and H. sapiens neanderthalis).
    $endgroup$
    – Remi.b
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    You just made my point. The precise classification and relationship between Homo sapiens and H. neandertalensis isn't really known. So where did Neanderthals come from? Did they evolve in Africa or Europe, and from WHAT did they evolve? Homo habilis? That's what I asked.
    $endgroup$
    – David Blomstrom
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Are you asking whether we have a name for the MRCA of sapiens and neanderthals?
    $endgroup$
    – Remi.b
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Yes, knowing the MRCA would be helpful. If Neanderthals evolved in Europe, and Homo sapiens didn't enter Europe until less than 60,000 years ago, then Neanderthals must have evolved from Homo habilis or some other ancient human.
    $endgroup$
    – David Blomstrom
    6 hours ago


















  • $begingroup$
    You are calling Homo sapiens both 1) the current homo lineage and 2) the ancestor of Homo sapien and Homo neanderthalis, which make it a little hard to understand (you might want to have a look at this post). It gets even more confusing that most people call both neanderthals and modern humans as Homo sapiens (H. sapiens sapiens and H. sapiens neanderthalis).
    $endgroup$
    – Remi.b
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    You just made my point. The precise classification and relationship between Homo sapiens and H. neandertalensis isn't really known. So where did Neanderthals come from? Did they evolve in Africa or Europe, and from WHAT did they evolve? Homo habilis? That's what I asked.
    $endgroup$
    – David Blomstrom
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Are you asking whether we have a name for the MRCA of sapiens and neanderthals?
    $endgroup$
    – Remi.b
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Yes, knowing the MRCA would be helpful. If Neanderthals evolved in Europe, and Homo sapiens didn't enter Europe until less than 60,000 years ago, then Neanderthals must have evolved from Homo habilis or some other ancient human.
    $endgroup$
    – David Blomstrom
    6 hours ago
















$begingroup$
You are calling Homo sapiens both 1) the current homo lineage and 2) the ancestor of Homo sapien and Homo neanderthalis, which make it a little hard to understand (you might want to have a look at this post). It gets even more confusing that most people call both neanderthals and modern humans as Homo sapiens (H. sapiens sapiens and H. sapiens neanderthalis).
$endgroup$
– Remi.b
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
You are calling Homo sapiens both 1) the current homo lineage and 2) the ancestor of Homo sapien and Homo neanderthalis, which make it a little hard to understand (you might want to have a look at this post). It gets even more confusing that most people call both neanderthals and modern humans as Homo sapiens (H. sapiens sapiens and H. sapiens neanderthalis).
$endgroup$
– Remi.b
8 hours ago












$begingroup$
You just made my point. The precise classification and relationship between Homo sapiens and H. neandertalensis isn't really known. So where did Neanderthals come from? Did they evolve in Africa or Europe, and from WHAT did they evolve? Homo habilis? That's what I asked.
$endgroup$
– David Blomstrom
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
You just made my point. The precise classification and relationship between Homo sapiens and H. neandertalensis isn't really known. So where did Neanderthals come from? Did they evolve in Africa or Europe, and from WHAT did they evolve? Homo habilis? That's what I asked.
$endgroup$
– David Blomstrom
7 hours ago












$begingroup$
Are you asking whether we have a name for the MRCA of sapiens and neanderthals?
$endgroup$
– Remi.b
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
Are you asking whether we have a name for the MRCA of sapiens and neanderthals?
$endgroup$
– Remi.b
7 hours ago












$begingroup$
Yes, knowing the MRCA would be helpful. If Neanderthals evolved in Europe, and Homo sapiens didn't enter Europe until less than 60,000 years ago, then Neanderthals must have evolved from Homo habilis or some other ancient human.
$endgroup$
– David Blomstrom
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
Yes, knowing the MRCA would be helpful. If Neanderthals evolved in Europe, and Homo sapiens didn't enter Europe until less than 60,000 years ago, then Neanderthals must have evolved from Homo habilis or some other ancient human.
$endgroup$
– David Blomstrom
6 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















3












$begingroup$

The topic is reviewed in a freely available Nature article, from which the figure below (I have added the label ‘Human’) is taken. As can be seen it is thought that the lines leading to the ancestor of Neanderthals/Denisovans and that leading to modern humans diverged after a common ancestor had left Africa; and that the lines leading to Neanderthals and Denisovans split from their common ancestor subsequently.



You will notice that the article refers to “modern humans”, rather than Homo sapiens, presumably because this terminology is confusing, whereas the picture is clear.



Hominid evolutionary tree






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$





















    1












    $begingroup$

    I think your whole issue is more a problem of semantic than phylogenetic.



    You are asking for the name of the ancestor of Homo neanderthalis (aka. H. sapiens neanderthalis) and H. sapiens (aka. H. sapiens sapiens). You are asking whether H. sapiens is the ancestor in the sense that H. sapiens would not be monophyletic or whether maybe H. habilis could be the ancestor.



    In general, any fossil we found (species are described after found fossils) are never a direct ancestor of a current lineage but always some kind of an offshoot. The reason is probabilistic. Go back long enough in time and the vast majority of individuals that lived at that moment did not live any offspring today (see coalescent theory for more info). As a consequence, the MRCA are typically not named.



    So, one can talk about the phylogenetic relationships among species, one can talk about when did what substitution happen but calling one species as the descendent of another is mainly non-sense (simply because ancestors are not named).



    These semantic difficulties with the concept of species are very common, even sometimes among trained evolutionary biologists. You might want to have a look at the post How could humans have interbred with Neanderthals if we're a different species? that talks about these difficulties.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













      Your Answer





      StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
      return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
      StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
      StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
      });
      });
      }, "mathjax-editing");

      StackExchange.ready(function() {
      var channelOptions = {
      tags: "".split(" "),
      id: "375"
      };
      initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

      StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
      // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
      if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
      StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
      createEditor();
      });
      }
      else {
      createEditor();
      }
      });

      function createEditor() {
      StackExchange.prepareEditor({
      heartbeatType: 'answer',
      autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
      convertImagesToLinks: false,
      noModals: true,
      showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
      reputationToPostImages: null,
      bindNavPrevention: true,
      postfix: "",
      imageUploader: {
      brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
      contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
      allowUrls: true
      },
      noCode: true, onDemand: true,
      discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
      ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
      });


      }
      });














      draft saved

      draft discarded


















      StackExchange.ready(
      function () {
      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fbiology.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f81359%2fwhere-did-neanderthals-and-denisovan-man-come-from%23new-answer', 'question_page');
      }
      );

      Post as a guest















      Required, but never shown

























      2 Answers
      2






      active

      oldest

      votes








      2 Answers
      2






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      3












      $begingroup$

      The topic is reviewed in a freely available Nature article, from which the figure below (I have added the label ‘Human’) is taken. As can be seen it is thought that the lines leading to the ancestor of Neanderthals/Denisovans and that leading to modern humans diverged after a common ancestor had left Africa; and that the lines leading to Neanderthals and Denisovans split from their common ancestor subsequently.



      You will notice that the article refers to “modern humans”, rather than Homo sapiens, presumably because this terminology is confusing, whereas the picture is clear.



      Hominid evolutionary tree






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$


















        3












        $begingroup$

        The topic is reviewed in a freely available Nature article, from which the figure below (I have added the label ‘Human’) is taken. As can be seen it is thought that the lines leading to the ancestor of Neanderthals/Denisovans and that leading to modern humans diverged after a common ancestor had left Africa; and that the lines leading to Neanderthals and Denisovans split from their common ancestor subsequently.



        You will notice that the article refers to “modern humans”, rather than Homo sapiens, presumably because this terminology is confusing, whereas the picture is clear.



        Hominid evolutionary tree






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$
















          3












          3








          3





          $begingroup$

          The topic is reviewed in a freely available Nature article, from which the figure below (I have added the label ‘Human’) is taken. As can be seen it is thought that the lines leading to the ancestor of Neanderthals/Denisovans and that leading to modern humans diverged after a common ancestor had left Africa; and that the lines leading to Neanderthals and Denisovans split from their common ancestor subsequently.



          You will notice that the article refers to “modern humans”, rather than Homo sapiens, presumably because this terminology is confusing, whereas the picture is clear.



          Hominid evolutionary tree






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          The topic is reviewed in a freely available Nature article, from which the figure below (I have added the label ‘Human’) is taken. As can be seen it is thought that the lines leading to the ancestor of Neanderthals/Denisovans and that leading to modern humans diverged after a common ancestor had left Africa; and that the lines leading to Neanderthals and Denisovans split from their common ancestor subsequently.



          You will notice that the article refers to “modern humans”, rather than Homo sapiens, presumably because this terminology is confusing, whereas the picture is clear.



          Hominid evolutionary tree







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 5 hours ago









          DavidDavid

          12.2k41952




          12.2k41952























              1












              $begingroup$

              I think your whole issue is more a problem of semantic than phylogenetic.



              You are asking for the name of the ancestor of Homo neanderthalis (aka. H. sapiens neanderthalis) and H. sapiens (aka. H. sapiens sapiens). You are asking whether H. sapiens is the ancestor in the sense that H. sapiens would not be monophyletic or whether maybe H. habilis could be the ancestor.



              In general, any fossil we found (species are described after found fossils) are never a direct ancestor of a current lineage but always some kind of an offshoot. The reason is probabilistic. Go back long enough in time and the vast majority of individuals that lived at that moment did not live any offspring today (see coalescent theory for more info). As a consequence, the MRCA are typically not named.



              So, one can talk about the phylogenetic relationships among species, one can talk about when did what substitution happen but calling one species as the descendent of another is mainly non-sense (simply because ancestors are not named).



              These semantic difficulties with the concept of species are very common, even sometimes among trained evolutionary biologists. You might want to have a look at the post How could humans have interbred with Neanderthals if we're a different species? that talks about these difficulties.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$


















                1












                $begingroup$

                I think your whole issue is more a problem of semantic than phylogenetic.



                You are asking for the name of the ancestor of Homo neanderthalis (aka. H. sapiens neanderthalis) and H. sapiens (aka. H. sapiens sapiens). You are asking whether H. sapiens is the ancestor in the sense that H. sapiens would not be monophyletic or whether maybe H. habilis could be the ancestor.



                In general, any fossil we found (species are described after found fossils) are never a direct ancestor of a current lineage but always some kind of an offshoot. The reason is probabilistic. Go back long enough in time and the vast majority of individuals that lived at that moment did not live any offspring today (see coalescent theory for more info). As a consequence, the MRCA are typically not named.



                So, one can talk about the phylogenetic relationships among species, one can talk about when did what substitution happen but calling one species as the descendent of another is mainly non-sense (simply because ancestors are not named).



                These semantic difficulties with the concept of species are very common, even sometimes among trained evolutionary biologists. You might want to have a look at the post How could humans have interbred with Neanderthals if we're a different species? that talks about these difficulties.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$
















                  1












                  1








                  1





                  $begingroup$

                  I think your whole issue is more a problem of semantic than phylogenetic.



                  You are asking for the name of the ancestor of Homo neanderthalis (aka. H. sapiens neanderthalis) and H. sapiens (aka. H. sapiens sapiens). You are asking whether H. sapiens is the ancestor in the sense that H. sapiens would not be monophyletic or whether maybe H. habilis could be the ancestor.



                  In general, any fossil we found (species are described after found fossils) are never a direct ancestor of a current lineage but always some kind of an offshoot. The reason is probabilistic. Go back long enough in time and the vast majority of individuals that lived at that moment did not live any offspring today (see coalescent theory for more info). As a consequence, the MRCA are typically not named.



                  So, one can talk about the phylogenetic relationships among species, one can talk about when did what substitution happen but calling one species as the descendent of another is mainly non-sense (simply because ancestors are not named).



                  These semantic difficulties with the concept of species are very common, even sometimes among trained evolutionary biologists. You might want to have a look at the post How could humans have interbred with Neanderthals if we're a different species? that talks about these difficulties.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  I think your whole issue is more a problem of semantic than phylogenetic.



                  You are asking for the name of the ancestor of Homo neanderthalis (aka. H. sapiens neanderthalis) and H. sapiens (aka. H. sapiens sapiens). You are asking whether H. sapiens is the ancestor in the sense that H. sapiens would not be monophyletic or whether maybe H. habilis could be the ancestor.



                  In general, any fossil we found (species are described after found fossils) are never a direct ancestor of a current lineage but always some kind of an offshoot. The reason is probabilistic. Go back long enough in time and the vast majority of individuals that lived at that moment did not live any offspring today (see coalescent theory for more info). As a consequence, the MRCA are typically not named.



                  So, one can talk about the phylogenetic relationships among species, one can talk about when did what substitution happen but calling one species as the descendent of another is mainly non-sense (simply because ancestors are not named).



                  These semantic difficulties with the concept of species are very common, even sometimes among trained evolutionary biologists. You might want to have a look at the post How could humans have interbred with Neanderthals if we're a different species? that talks about these difficulties.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 6 hours ago









                  Remi.bRemi.b

                  58.2k8107191




                  58.2k8107191






























                      draft saved

                      draft discarded




















































                      Thanks for contributing an answer to Biology Stack Exchange!


                      • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                      But avoid



                      • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                      • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                      Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                      To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                      draft saved


                      draft discarded














                      StackExchange.ready(
                      function () {
                      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fbiology.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f81359%2fwhere-did-neanderthals-and-denisovan-man-come-from%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                      }
                      );

                      Post as a guest















                      Required, but never shown





















































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown

































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown







                      Popular posts from this blog

                      Magento 2 controller redirect on button click in phtml file

                      Polycentropodidae