What is capitalism's answer to constant economic growth hitting the limit of the planet's finite resources?
We keep hearing a lot about economical growth in the media and this answer shows us why it is so important:
Therefore, we have three options:
- A constant increase in unemployment. (Generally feared and loathed.)
- Less time at work per person. (Sometimes impractical. Wastes
educational resources as people would still have to study and train
just as much only to produce less. Might reduce people's earnings,
etc.)
- Constant economic growth to create new jobs and counteract the
reduced need for manpower caused by technological advancement.
The third option is generally preferred by policymakers, academics, the
public, etc. for the reasons described above, as well as other
reasons.
However, constant economic growth within a planet having finite resources is not possible (it is not sustainable):
Capitalism requires a constantly expanding production and consumption
of goods, which can only be achieved through the increased
exploitation of the planet’s natural resources at an unsustainable
rate. Because of this reality, sustainable development cannot be
achieved without a dramatic reduction in the levels of production and
consumption, which directly contradicts the growth logic that drives
capitalism.
So, I am wondering if how capitalism can deal with this? What if we reach the limits of the environment and economic growth is no longer possible?
economy capitalism sustainable-development
add a comment |
We keep hearing a lot about economical growth in the media and this answer shows us why it is so important:
Therefore, we have three options:
- A constant increase in unemployment. (Generally feared and loathed.)
- Less time at work per person. (Sometimes impractical. Wastes
educational resources as people would still have to study and train
just as much only to produce less. Might reduce people's earnings,
etc.)
- Constant economic growth to create new jobs and counteract the
reduced need for manpower caused by technological advancement.
The third option is generally preferred by policymakers, academics, the
public, etc. for the reasons described above, as well as other
reasons.
However, constant economic growth within a planet having finite resources is not possible (it is not sustainable):
Capitalism requires a constantly expanding production and consumption
of goods, which can only be achieved through the increased
exploitation of the planet’s natural resources at an unsustainable
rate. Because of this reality, sustainable development cannot be
achieved without a dramatic reduction in the levels of production and
consumption, which directly contradicts the growth logic that drives
capitalism.
So, I am wondering if how capitalism can deal with this? What if we reach the limits of the environment and economic growth is no longer possible?
economy capitalism sustainable-development
17
I'd say capitalism deals with that the same way you deal with the fact you're going to die: by not thinking too much about it.
– Rekesoft
5 hours ago
1
For context, people have been loudly complaining about "finate resources" and the need to stop growth ever since Thomas Malthus in 1798. So far, 100% of them have been proven wrong, and their arguments fallacious. This isn't some profound newly discovered truth by an enterprising journalist (the author of the linked article isn't even an economist or scientist), it's just the same old 200+ year old rehashed fear.
– user4012
3 hours ago
If we run out of a particular resource, then now there's a market need for an alternative, and someone will fill that need because they'll be able to profit off of it
– Brian Leishman
1 hour ago
4
Why is the claim "Capitalism requires a constantly expanding production and consumption of goods" any more true than "Command economies require a constantly expanding production and consumption of goods" or "Communism requires a constantly expanding production and consumption of goods"? Some level of production of goods is necessary in any economic system, and much of that production must scale with population growth, but why is that logic any different in a capitalist system to a non-capitalist one? I can see no reason.
– Mark Amery
57 mins ago
add a comment |
We keep hearing a lot about economical growth in the media and this answer shows us why it is so important:
Therefore, we have three options:
- A constant increase in unemployment. (Generally feared and loathed.)
- Less time at work per person. (Sometimes impractical. Wastes
educational resources as people would still have to study and train
just as much only to produce less. Might reduce people's earnings,
etc.)
- Constant economic growth to create new jobs and counteract the
reduced need for manpower caused by technological advancement.
The third option is generally preferred by policymakers, academics, the
public, etc. for the reasons described above, as well as other
reasons.
However, constant economic growth within a planet having finite resources is not possible (it is not sustainable):
Capitalism requires a constantly expanding production and consumption
of goods, which can only be achieved through the increased
exploitation of the planet’s natural resources at an unsustainable
rate. Because of this reality, sustainable development cannot be
achieved without a dramatic reduction in the levels of production and
consumption, which directly contradicts the growth logic that drives
capitalism.
So, I am wondering if how capitalism can deal with this? What if we reach the limits of the environment and economic growth is no longer possible?
economy capitalism sustainable-development
We keep hearing a lot about economical growth in the media and this answer shows us why it is so important:
Therefore, we have three options:
- A constant increase in unemployment. (Generally feared and loathed.)
- Less time at work per person. (Sometimes impractical. Wastes
educational resources as people would still have to study and train
just as much only to produce less. Might reduce people's earnings,
etc.)
- Constant economic growth to create new jobs and counteract the
reduced need for manpower caused by technological advancement.
The third option is generally preferred by policymakers, academics, the
public, etc. for the reasons described above, as well as other
reasons.
However, constant economic growth within a planet having finite resources is not possible (it is not sustainable):
Capitalism requires a constantly expanding production and consumption
of goods, which can only be achieved through the increased
exploitation of the planet’s natural resources at an unsustainable
rate. Because of this reality, sustainable development cannot be
achieved without a dramatic reduction in the levels of production and
consumption, which directly contradicts the growth logic that drives
capitalism.
So, I am wondering if how capitalism can deal with this? What if we reach the limits of the environment and economic growth is no longer possible?
economy capitalism sustainable-development
economy capitalism sustainable-development
edited 47 mins ago
V2Blast
1216
1216
asked 6 hours ago
AlexeiAlexei
15.6k1888168
15.6k1888168
17
I'd say capitalism deals with that the same way you deal with the fact you're going to die: by not thinking too much about it.
– Rekesoft
5 hours ago
1
For context, people have been loudly complaining about "finate resources" and the need to stop growth ever since Thomas Malthus in 1798. So far, 100% of them have been proven wrong, and their arguments fallacious. This isn't some profound newly discovered truth by an enterprising journalist (the author of the linked article isn't even an economist or scientist), it's just the same old 200+ year old rehashed fear.
– user4012
3 hours ago
If we run out of a particular resource, then now there's a market need for an alternative, and someone will fill that need because they'll be able to profit off of it
– Brian Leishman
1 hour ago
4
Why is the claim "Capitalism requires a constantly expanding production and consumption of goods" any more true than "Command economies require a constantly expanding production and consumption of goods" or "Communism requires a constantly expanding production and consumption of goods"? Some level of production of goods is necessary in any economic system, and much of that production must scale with population growth, but why is that logic any different in a capitalist system to a non-capitalist one? I can see no reason.
– Mark Amery
57 mins ago
add a comment |
17
I'd say capitalism deals with that the same way you deal with the fact you're going to die: by not thinking too much about it.
– Rekesoft
5 hours ago
1
For context, people have been loudly complaining about "finate resources" and the need to stop growth ever since Thomas Malthus in 1798. So far, 100% of them have been proven wrong, and their arguments fallacious. This isn't some profound newly discovered truth by an enterprising journalist (the author of the linked article isn't even an economist or scientist), it's just the same old 200+ year old rehashed fear.
– user4012
3 hours ago
If we run out of a particular resource, then now there's a market need for an alternative, and someone will fill that need because they'll be able to profit off of it
– Brian Leishman
1 hour ago
4
Why is the claim "Capitalism requires a constantly expanding production and consumption of goods" any more true than "Command economies require a constantly expanding production and consumption of goods" or "Communism requires a constantly expanding production and consumption of goods"? Some level of production of goods is necessary in any economic system, and much of that production must scale with population growth, but why is that logic any different in a capitalist system to a non-capitalist one? I can see no reason.
– Mark Amery
57 mins ago
17
17
I'd say capitalism deals with that the same way you deal with the fact you're going to die: by not thinking too much about it.
– Rekesoft
5 hours ago
I'd say capitalism deals with that the same way you deal with the fact you're going to die: by not thinking too much about it.
– Rekesoft
5 hours ago
1
1
For context, people have been loudly complaining about "finate resources" and the need to stop growth ever since Thomas Malthus in 1798. So far, 100% of them have been proven wrong, and their arguments fallacious. This isn't some profound newly discovered truth by an enterprising journalist (the author of the linked article isn't even an economist or scientist), it's just the same old 200+ year old rehashed fear.
– user4012
3 hours ago
For context, people have been loudly complaining about "finate resources" and the need to stop growth ever since Thomas Malthus in 1798. So far, 100% of them have been proven wrong, and their arguments fallacious. This isn't some profound newly discovered truth by an enterprising journalist (the author of the linked article isn't even an economist or scientist), it's just the same old 200+ year old rehashed fear.
– user4012
3 hours ago
If we run out of a particular resource, then now there's a market need for an alternative, and someone will fill that need because they'll be able to profit off of it
– Brian Leishman
1 hour ago
If we run out of a particular resource, then now there's a market need for an alternative, and someone will fill that need because they'll be able to profit off of it
– Brian Leishman
1 hour ago
4
4
Why is the claim "Capitalism requires a constantly expanding production and consumption of goods" any more true than "Command economies require a constantly expanding production and consumption of goods" or "Communism requires a constantly expanding production and consumption of goods"? Some level of production of goods is necessary in any economic system, and much of that production must scale with population growth, but why is that logic any different in a capitalist system to a non-capitalist one? I can see no reason.
– Mark Amery
57 mins ago
Why is the claim "Capitalism requires a constantly expanding production and consumption of goods" any more true than "Command economies require a constantly expanding production and consumption of goods" or "Communism requires a constantly expanding production and consumption of goods"? Some level of production of goods is necessary in any economic system, and much of that production must scale with population growth, but why is that logic any different in a capitalist system to a non-capitalist one? I can see no reason.
– Mark Amery
57 mins ago
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
Not all parts of the economy consume finite resources equally. In fact, only a minor portion of it is related to the manufacturing of goods. Most of the economy is services by now and, even more related to your question, most of the growth is growth in services.
Manufacturing is on the decline while capitalism thrives.
Source
Growth is growth in services.
Source
In fact, there is plenty potential for services to grow even more. For example, if you live in a western country and you get older, you wish there were more service workers tending to elder people available.
And services are very friendly on the environment. Just an example: Being an Instagram influencer is a very eco-friendly job consuming comparably only few of the finite resources.
Also, some resources are renewable: food, energy, recycled materials (to some extent), wood, .... With regard to manufacturing and production there certainly is a desire to use existing resources as efficiently as possible with this kind of optimization still ongoing.
Yes, saving the planet mostly probably will mean not using more (rather less) of the resources, but that won't be the downfall of capitalism at all. If I would be worried about capitalism, I would worry about ongoing trends in artificial intelligence and automation.
Note that this works only locally. Manufacturing declines in rich countries because there are poorer countries they can pay to do the production instead of doing it themselves. It would be interesting to look at global trends.
– vsz
12 mins ago
I'm not sure why this answer is showing charts of $ amounts when the question is about finite resources. Concrete, the most widely used material in the world, has seen steadily increased production. Here's a US chart: i.imgur.com/HdBrbvy.png ( from wapo ) . Or consider global iron ore production: i.imgur.com/DN3kUwn.png . Discussing GDP doesn't answer the question.
– BurnsBA
10 mins ago
The concrete data in the chart are from minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/historical-statistics/… and the iron ore chart is from minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/iron_ore/…
– BurnsBA
8 mins ago
add a comment |
Capitalism is all about maximising profit. Obviously, it can be done in multiple ways, of which reducing the costs is always first and foremost. That includes reducing labor force of an enterprise, which is but one and least efficient, albeit most vilified method.
Most often though capitalism employs new technologies, new materials and new ideas to increase productivity and/or reduce costs. And it can be seen across world and time, that production of anything becomes more efficient, streamlined, less wasteful etc.
There is no reason to assume that the need for natural resources will be constantly increasing ad infinitum without allowing for the possibility of either substitution (humans may develop a technology of converting old plastic bags into new synthetic material stronger than steel, for example) or there will be new sources of resources (i.e. asteroid mining).
In the meantime capitalism's answer is improvement. Not sure how old are you, but I remember when instead of a smartphone one required a huge desktop computer, printer and phone for effective office work. Think on how much technological progress reduced the need for resources going from fifty kilos of various materials to less than 200 grams (which is 250 TIMES) without reduction in productivity (in fact, it increased it dramatically). Is it really hard to apply same logic to almost EVERYTHING (to various extent, of course)?
4
Yes, it's impossible to apply that to everything because it's not logical. Your phone is not going to be scaled down another 250x. You can't eat 250x less (or get 250x improvement efficiency in making that food). Your car isn't going to weigh 4kg anytime soon. And so on... There are real physical limits on anything tangible.
– awjlogan
1 hour ago
3
There is more to capitalism than maximizing profit. A competent business position would be to ensure sustainability of the business, such that continuous profit is assured over the life span of the company. e.g. don't clear cut every tree as a lumbermill.
– Drunk Cynic
1 hour ago
1
@awjlogan - I see your point. Will amend accordingly. However, you're missing the point on some things, too. Yes, some areas can't be improved 250x (and I'm not attached to that number), but they don't have to. Food we grow in excessive excess, and already cheaply. Maybe it's time to improve refrigeration again? so that we can store food indefinitely? Obviously physics limits us severely, but then again - car has utility, but not much versatility, for example. That's why you can still replace yours every year, but model from 2000 is still perfectly adequate, unlike your smartphone.
– AcePL
52 mins ago
@DrunkCynic - I agree, obviously. My answer is necessary an oversimplification to highlight the point OP is asking about. I will think on how to amend it to keep it simple and include your criticism. Thanks.
– AcePL
49 mins ago
1
@AcePL The problem is you picked an example which is semiconductor based, and as such was a very immature technology and hence had massive room for improvement. Refridgeration is very mature. You could invest a huge sum of money to get a % or two gain in efficiency, but again there's a fundamental limit on the efficiency of the heat cycle. That is the question that is being asked - you can asymptotically approach this limit (growth), but your gains become less and less and more expensive as you get closer.
– awjlogan
31 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
I would like to (sort-of) challenge one of the premises of the question, namely that resources are finite, and I have a strong and weak version of the challenge.
The Weak Version
I mean, sure, there's only so much matter in the planet, and only so much of it is useful for our current purposes. Whether you think the end is in decades, centuries, or millenia, anyone who can count more than the sum of their fingers and toes can look ahead to the end of the tunnel. But human ingenuity is also a resource, and human creativity is unbounded.
Think about it. Finance? Law? Software? These things are huge sectors of modern economies and they barely consume any physical resources at all. Trilarion's upvoted answer focuses a lot on the service sector, another great example. How much of our resources today exist in the form of intellectual property?
I'm not sure how the theory plays out, but in practice we've already begun to pivot in this direction more and more. N.B. that's exactly what capitalism says should happen: as physical resources become scarcer their value increases and we either have to live with shortages... or pivot to something cheaper.
The Strong Version
Which coexists with the version above: we'll never run out of resources before something else happens.
That something else might be the extinction of the human race, space travel/colonization, digitization of consciousness, whatever. Why aren't we doing more in those spheres now (at least the more positive ones)? Because it isn't economically viable. But again, as physical resources become scarcer their value will increase, until it becomes more viable to strip mine asteroids than continue to deplete the Earth.
There are some holes in the strong version: if agents are allowed to proceed to maximize their utility without regard to negative externalities generated (e.g. a factory can pollute with no consequence) then the incentives are warped. If the ecosystem that sustains life here is wrecked by e.g. AGW then game over. You can probably think of others, but the point is that continuing current trends forward unboundedly is likely selling humankind short.
add a comment |
Capitalism's answer is a global crisis, which weakens world economic powers and redistributes resource consumption. Such a crisis may be either peaceful (like the Great Depression in the US) or non-peaceful (like WWI, for example - when growing economic powers - the German bloc - tried to overpower existing economic powers - the Western world mainly).
So, in fact, there is no such problem in capitalism - its decision is stored inside.
About "growth in services economics, which is unlimited". Let's consider, why it is naive.
The process itself is described very well in @Trilarion's answer. The answer describes so-called "post-industrial" economics.
What's wrong with it?
At first, should notice, that graphics (services percent) are true, but for very special countries from western world, which have such huge services sector (US and UK are most known). You may look at the second graph. We now, that main part of UK GDP is formed by banking sector and services. From the first view, it sounds good - it is a pure service sector, we are just servicing our and foreign banks money, giving credits, so on.
But - of course, there is a 'but' - the financial sector cannot live in a vacuum. When it grows too much over REAL sector, we obtain a financial bubble. It may be a big amount of credits, an exchange bubble, or something else, but what we have? We have an economic sector which growth, in fact, is a fake.
A bright example: Brexit. You may, again, look at the second graph from @Trilarion's answer. The UK have a huge financial sector (result of M. Thatcher politics of 'de-industrializing'). What Brexit means? It means (and Deutsche Bank already have done it), that EU banks will stop to use UK bank services, because of UK is exiting, and retrieve their finances from UK back to homeland. How do you think, this will affect UK bank sector (and, as it is huge, huge part of economics)? It will collapse. You may say - but what's the difference between EU and UK, if both have a financial sector and banks? Yes, both have, but EU do have a big REAL sector (which can be an investment target to the banks, and supports it) and UK does not.
To conclude. That theory - about constant growth, provided with services constant growth - is applicable in a one-hegemony-world, which is globalised. While hegemonic growth its services, which is consumed by others, others, in return, provide something REAL. A bright example is the 'late-Washington' world - before Russian comeback to global powers. But now, as the world becomes multi-polar again, this is not more than a pure theory.
3
Capitalism includes something called "economic cycle". Crisis - such as you mention - is an extreme which happens when said "economic cycle" has been unbalanced by outside intervention (which intervention is by definition non-capitalistic) and balance needs to be restored. The longer and more intensive is the intervention into the normal cycle the more extreme is the crisis. So saying that capitalism's answer is crysis is akin to saying one needs to be sick every so often in order to be well... Thus your answer, coming from faulty assumption, does not really answer the question.
– AcePL
2 hours ago
2
@AcePL "intervention is by definition non-capitalistic" - who, you think, do such intervention? Aliens? What 'intervention' cause Great Depresion? Or 2008 crisis in US banks? Or .com crisis?
– user2501323
2 hours ago
People, of course, but my point is still valid - intervention is not capitalism. It's its antithesis, in fact.
– AcePL
2 hours ago
3
People?! Hmm, I see. So, capitalism is a thing in a vacuum, and evil people are trying to break it? Capitalism is a system, invented by people and used by people. What do you call intervention in this terms?
– user2501323
2 hours ago
1
Ho-ho, understand you, you are talking about pure (sometimes called wild) capitalism. But you are mistaking when talk about "non-agression principle". The winning of the most advanced companies is the main principle of capitalism. Without it, it is something else, not capitalism. Can you give any example? Is Federal Reserve System a central instrument, or not, by the side?
– user2501323
2 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
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4 Answers
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4 Answers
4
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oldest
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Not all parts of the economy consume finite resources equally. In fact, only a minor portion of it is related to the manufacturing of goods. Most of the economy is services by now and, even more related to your question, most of the growth is growth in services.
Manufacturing is on the decline while capitalism thrives.
Source
Growth is growth in services.
Source
In fact, there is plenty potential for services to grow even more. For example, if you live in a western country and you get older, you wish there were more service workers tending to elder people available.
And services are very friendly on the environment. Just an example: Being an Instagram influencer is a very eco-friendly job consuming comparably only few of the finite resources.
Also, some resources are renewable: food, energy, recycled materials (to some extent), wood, .... With regard to manufacturing and production there certainly is a desire to use existing resources as efficiently as possible with this kind of optimization still ongoing.
Yes, saving the planet mostly probably will mean not using more (rather less) of the resources, but that won't be the downfall of capitalism at all. If I would be worried about capitalism, I would worry about ongoing trends in artificial intelligence and automation.
Note that this works only locally. Manufacturing declines in rich countries because there are poorer countries they can pay to do the production instead of doing it themselves. It would be interesting to look at global trends.
– vsz
12 mins ago
I'm not sure why this answer is showing charts of $ amounts when the question is about finite resources. Concrete, the most widely used material in the world, has seen steadily increased production. Here's a US chart: i.imgur.com/HdBrbvy.png ( from wapo ) . Or consider global iron ore production: i.imgur.com/DN3kUwn.png . Discussing GDP doesn't answer the question.
– BurnsBA
10 mins ago
The concrete data in the chart are from minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/historical-statistics/… and the iron ore chart is from minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/iron_ore/…
– BurnsBA
8 mins ago
add a comment |
Not all parts of the economy consume finite resources equally. In fact, only a minor portion of it is related to the manufacturing of goods. Most of the economy is services by now and, even more related to your question, most of the growth is growth in services.
Manufacturing is on the decline while capitalism thrives.
Source
Growth is growth in services.
Source
In fact, there is plenty potential for services to grow even more. For example, if you live in a western country and you get older, you wish there were more service workers tending to elder people available.
And services are very friendly on the environment. Just an example: Being an Instagram influencer is a very eco-friendly job consuming comparably only few of the finite resources.
Also, some resources are renewable: food, energy, recycled materials (to some extent), wood, .... With regard to manufacturing and production there certainly is a desire to use existing resources as efficiently as possible with this kind of optimization still ongoing.
Yes, saving the planet mostly probably will mean not using more (rather less) of the resources, but that won't be the downfall of capitalism at all. If I would be worried about capitalism, I would worry about ongoing trends in artificial intelligence and automation.
Note that this works only locally. Manufacturing declines in rich countries because there are poorer countries they can pay to do the production instead of doing it themselves. It would be interesting to look at global trends.
– vsz
12 mins ago
I'm not sure why this answer is showing charts of $ amounts when the question is about finite resources. Concrete, the most widely used material in the world, has seen steadily increased production. Here's a US chart: i.imgur.com/HdBrbvy.png ( from wapo ) . Or consider global iron ore production: i.imgur.com/DN3kUwn.png . Discussing GDP doesn't answer the question.
– BurnsBA
10 mins ago
The concrete data in the chart are from minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/historical-statistics/… and the iron ore chart is from minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/iron_ore/…
– BurnsBA
8 mins ago
add a comment |
Not all parts of the economy consume finite resources equally. In fact, only a minor portion of it is related to the manufacturing of goods. Most of the economy is services by now and, even more related to your question, most of the growth is growth in services.
Manufacturing is on the decline while capitalism thrives.
Source
Growth is growth in services.
Source
In fact, there is plenty potential for services to grow even more. For example, if you live in a western country and you get older, you wish there were more service workers tending to elder people available.
And services are very friendly on the environment. Just an example: Being an Instagram influencer is a very eco-friendly job consuming comparably only few of the finite resources.
Also, some resources are renewable: food, energy, recycled materials (to some extent), wood, .... With regard to manufacturing and production there certainly is a desire to use existing resources as efficiently as possible with this kind of optimization still ongoing.
Yes, saving the planet mostly probably will mean not using more (rather less) of the resources, but that won't be the downfall of capitalism at all. If I would be worried about capitalism, I would worry about ongoing trends in artificial intelligence and automation.
Not all parts of the economy consume finite resources equally. In fact, only a minor portion of it is related to the manufacturing of goods. Most of the economy is services by now and, even more related to your question, most of the growth is growth in services.
Manufacturing is on the decline while capitalism thrives.
Source
Growth is growth in services.
Source
In fact, there is plenty potential for services to grow even more. For example, if you live in a western country and you get older, you wish there were more service workers tending to elder people available.
And services are very friendly on the environment. Just an example: Being an Instagram influencer is a very eco-friendly job consuming comparably only few of the finite resources.
Also, some resources are renewable: food, energy, recycled materials (to some extent), wood, .... With regard to manufacturing and production there certainly is a desire to use existing resources as efficiently as possible with this kind of optimization still ongoing.
Yes, saving the planet mostly probably will mean not using more (rather less) of the resources, but that won't be the downfall of capitalism at all. If I would be worried about capitalism, I would worry about ongoing trends in artificial intelligence and automation.
edited 5 hours ago
answered 5 hours ago
TrilarionTrilarion
1,718527
1,718527
Note that this works only locally. Manufacturing declines in rich countries because there are poorer countries they can pay to do the production instead of doing it themselves. It would be interesting to look at global trends.
– vsz
12 mins ago
I'm not sure why this answer is showing charts of $ amounts when the question is about finite resources. Concrete, the most widely used material in the world, has seen steadily increased production. Here's a US chart: i.imgur.com/HdBrbvy.png ( from wapo ) . Or consider global iron ore production: i.imgur.com/DN3kUwn.png . Discussing GDP doesn't answer the question.
– BurnsBA
10 mins ago
The concrete data in the chart are from minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/historical-statistics/… and the iron ore chart is from minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/iron_ore/…
– BurnsBA
8 mins ago
add a comment |
Note that this works only locally. Manufacturing declines in rich countries because there are poorer countries they can pay to do the production instead of doing it themselves. It would be interesting to look at global trends.
– vsz
12 mins ago
I'm not sure why this answer is showing charts of $ amounts when the question is about finite resources. Concrete, the most widely used material in the world, has seen steadily increased production. Here's a US chart: i.imgur.com/HdBrbvy.png ( from wapo ) . Or consider global iron ore production: i.imgur.com/DN3kUwn.png . Discussing GDP doesn't answer the question.
– BurnsBA
10 mins ago
The concrete data in the chart are from minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/historical-statistics/… and the iron ore chart is from minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/iron_ore/…
– BurnsBA
8 mins ago
Note that this works only locally. Manufacturing declines in rich countries because there are poorer countries they can pay to do the production instead of doing it themselves. It would be interesting to look at global trends.
– vsz
12 mins ago
Note that this works only locally. Manufacturing declines in rich countries because there are poorer countries they can pay to do the production instead of doing it themselves. It would be interesting to look at global trends.
– vsz
12 mins ago
I'm not sure why this answer is showing charts of $ amounts when the question is about finite resources. Concrete, the most widely used material in the world, has seen steadily increased production. Here's a US chart: i.imgur.com/HdBrbvy.png ( from wapo ) . Or consider global iron ore production: i.imgur.com/DN3kUwn.png . Discussing GDP doesn't answer the question.
– BurnsBA
10 mins ago
I'm not sure why this answer is showing charts of $ amounts when the question is about finite resources. Concrete, the most widely used material in the world, has seen steadily increased production. Here's a US chart: i.imgur.com/HdBrbvy.png ( from wapo ) . Or consider global iron ore production: i.imgur.com/DN3kUwn.png . Discussing GDP doesn't answer the question.
– BurnsBA
10 mins ago
The concrete data in the chart are from minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/historical-statistics/… and the iron ore chart is from minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/iron_ore/…
– BurnsBA
8 mins ago
The concrete data in the chart are from minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/historical-statistics/… and the iron ore chart is from minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/iron_ore/…
– BurnsBA
8 mins ago
add a comment |
Capitalism is all about maximising profit. Obviously, it can be done in multiple ways, of which reducing the costs is always first and foremost. That includes reducing labor force of an enterprise, which is but one and least efficient, albeit most vilified method.
Most often though capitalism employs new technologies, new materials and new ideas to increase productivity and/or reduce costs. And it can be seen across world and time, that production of anything becomes more efficient, streamlined, less wasteful etc.
There is no reason to assume that the need for natural resources will be constantly increasing ad infinitum without allowing for the possibility of either substitution (humans may develop a technology of converting old plastic bags into new synthetic material stronger than steel, for example) or there will be new sources of resources (i.e. asteroid mining).
In the meantime capitalism's answer is improvement. Not sure how old are you, but I remember when instead of a smartphone one required a huge desktop computer, printer and phone for effective office work. Think on how much technological progress reduced the need for resources going from fifty kilos of various materials to less than 200 grams (which is 250 TIMES) without reduction in productivity (in fact, it increased it dramatically). Is it really hard to apply same logic to almost EVERYTHING (to various extent, of course)?
4
Yes, it's impossible to apply that to everything because it's not logical. Your phone is not going to be scaled down another 250x. You can't eat 250x less (or get 250x improvement efficiency in making that food). Your car isn't going to weigh 4kg anytime soon. And so on... There are real physical limits on anything tangible.
– awjlogan
1 hour ago
3
There is more to capitalism than maximizing profit. A competent business position would be to ensure sustainability of the business, such that continuous profit is assured over the life span of the company. e.g. don't clear cut every tree as a lumbermill.
– Drunk Cynic
1 hour ago
1
@awjlogan - I see your point. Will amend accordingly. However, you're missing the point on some things, too. Yes, some areas can't be improved 250x (and I'm not attached to that number), but they don't have to. Food we grow in excessive excess, and already cheaply. Maybe it's time to improve refrigeration again? so that we can store food indefinitely? Obviously physics limits us severely, but then again - car has utility, but not much versatility, for example. That's why you can still replace yours every year, but model from 2000 is still perfectly adequate, unlike your smartphone.
– AcePL
52 mins ago
@DrunkCynic - I agree, obviously. My answer is necessary an oversimplification to highlight the point OP is asking about. I will think on how to amend it to keep it simple and include your criticism. Thanks.
– AcePL
49 mins ago
1
@AcePL The problem is you picked an example which is semiconductor based, and as such was a very immature technology and hence had massive room for improvement. Refridgeration is very mature. You could invest a huge sum of money to get a % or two gain in efficiency, but again there's a fundamental limit on the efficiency of the heat cycle. That is the question that is being asked - you can asymptotically approach this limit (growth), but your gains become less and less and more expensive as you get closer.
– awjlogan
31 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
Capitalism is all about maximising profit. Obviously, it can be done in multiple ways, of which reducing the costs is always first and foremost. That includes reducing labor force of an enterprise, which is but one and least efficient, albeit most vilified method.
Most often though capitalism employs new technologies, new materials and new ideas to increase productivity and/or reduce costs. And it can be seen across world and time, that production of anything becomes more efficient, streamlined, less wasteful etc.
There is no reason to assume that the need for natural resources will be constantly increasing ad infinitum without allowing for the possibility of either substitution (humans may develop a technology of converting old plastic bags into new synthetic material stronger than steel, for example) or there will be new sources of resources (i.e. asteroid mining).
In the meantime capitalism's answer is improvement. Not sure how old are you, but I remember when instead of a smartphone one required a huge desktop computer, printer and phone for effective office work. Think on how much technological progress reduced the need for resources going from fifty kilos of various materials to less than 200 grams (which is 250 TIMES) without reduction in productivity (in fact, it increased it dramatically). Is it really hard to apply same logic to almost EVERYTHING (to various extent, of course)?
4
Yes, it's impossible to apply that to everything because it's not logical. Your phone is not going to be scaled down another 250x. You can't eat 250x less (or get 250x improvement efficiency in making that food). Your car isn't going to weigh 4kg anytime soon. And so on... There are real physical limits on anything tangible.
– awjlogan
1 hour ago
3
There is more to capitalism than maximizing profit. A competent business position would be to ensure sustainability of the business, such that continuous profit is assured over the life span of the company. e.g. don't clear cut every tree as a lumbermill.
– Drunk Cynic
1 hour ago
1
@awjlogan - I see your point. Will amend accordingly. However, you're missing the point on some things, too. Yes, some areas can't be improved 250x (and I'm not attached to that number), but they don't have to. Food we grow in excessive excess, and already cheaply. Maybe it's time to improve refrigeration again? so that we can store food indefinitely? Obviously physics limits us severely, but then again - car has utility, but not much versatility, for example. That's why you can still replace yours every year, but model from 2000 is still perfectly adequate, unlike your smartphone.
– AcePL
52 mins ago
@DrunkCynic - I agree, obviously. My answer is necessary an oversimplification to highlight the point OP is asking about. I will think on how to amend it to keep it simple and include your criticism. Thanks.
– AcePL
49 mins ago
1
@AcePL The problem is you picked an example which is semiconductor based, and as such was a very immature technology and hence had massive room for improvement. Refridgeration is very mature. You could invest a huge sum of money to get a % or two gain in efficiency, but again there's a fundamental limit on the efficiency of the heat cycle. That is the question that is being asked - you can asymptotically approach this limit (growth), but your gains become less and less and more expensive as you get closer.
– awjlogan
31 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
Capitalism is all about maximising profit. Obviously, it can be done in multiple ways, of which reducing the costs is always first and foremost. That includes reducing labor force of an enterprise, which is but one and least efficient, albeit most vilified method.
Most often though capitalism employs new technologies, new materials and new ideas to increase productivity and/or reduce costs. And it can be seen across world and time, that production of anything becomes more efficient, streamlined, less wasteful etc.
There is no reason to assume that the need for natural resources will be constantly increasing ad infinitum without allowing for the possibility of either substitution (humans may develop a technology of converting old plastic bags into new synthetic material stronger than steel, for example) or there will be new sources of resources (i.e. asteroid mining).
In the meantime capitalism's answer is improvement. Not sure how old are you, but I remember when instead of a smartphone one required a huge desktop computer, printer and phone for effective office work. Think on how much technological progress reduced the need for resources going from fifty kilos of various materials to less than 200 grams (which is 250 TIMES) without reduction in productivity (in fact, it increased it dramatically). Is it really hard to apply same logic to almost EVERYTHING (to various extent, of course)?
Capitalism is all about maximising profit. Obviously, it can be done in multiple ways, of which reducing the costs is always first and foremost. That includes reducing labor force of an enterprise, which is but one and least efficient, albeit most vilified method.
Most often though capitalism employs new technologies, new materials and new ideas to increase productivity and/or reduce costs. And it can be seen across world and time, that production of anything becomes more efficient, streamlined, less wasteful etc.
There is no reason to assume that the need for natural resources will be constantly increasing ad infinitum without allowing for the possibility of either substitution (humans may develop a technology of converting old plastic bags into new synthetic material stronger than steel, for example) or there will be new sources of resources (i.e. asteroid mining).
In the meantime capitalism's answer is improvement. Not sure how old are you, but I remember when instead of a smartphone one required a huge desktop computer, printer and phone for effective office work. Think on how much technological progress reduced the need for resources going from fifty kilos of various materials to less than 200 grams (which is 250 TIMES) without reduction in productivity (in fact, it increased it dramatically). Is it really hard to apply same logic to almost EVERYTHING (to various extent, of course)?
edited 12 mins ago
answered 2 hours ago
AcePLAcePL
1,05226
1,05226
4
Yes, it's impossible to apply that to everything because it's not logical. Your phone is not going to be scaled down another 250x. You can't eat 250x less (or get 250x improvement efficiency in making that food). Your car isn't going to weigh 4kg anytime soon. And so on... There are real physical limits on anything tangible.
– awjlogan
1 hour ago
3
There is more to capitalism than maximizing profit. A competent business position would be to ensure sustainability of the business, such that continuous profit is assured over the life span of the company. e.g. don't clear cut every tree as a lumbermill.
– Drunk Cynic
1 hour ago
1
@awjlogan - I see your point. Will amend accordingly. However, you're missing the point on some things, too. Yes, some areas can't be improved 250x (and I'm not attached to that number), but they don't have to. Food we grow in excessive excess, and already cheaply. Maybe it's time to improve refrigeration again? so that we can store food indefinitely? Obviously physics limits us severely, but then again - car has utility, but not much versatility, for example. That's why you can still replace yours every year, but model from 2000 is still perfectly adequate, unlike your smartphone.
– AcePL
52 mins ago
@DrunkCynic - I agree, obviously. My answer is necessary an oversimplification to highlight the point OP is asking about. I will think on how to amend it to keep it simple and include your criticism. Thanks.
– AcePL
49 mins ago
1
@AcePL The problem is you picked an example which is semiconductor based, and as such was a very immature technology and hence had massive room for improvement. Refridgeration is very mature. You could invest a huge sum of money to get a % or two gain in efficiency, but again there's a fundamental limit on the efficiency of the heat cycle. That is the question that is being asked - you can asymptotically approach this limit (growth), but your gains become less and less and more expensive as you get closer.
– awjlogan
31 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
4
Yes, it's impossible to apply that to everything because it's not logical. Your phone is not going to be scaled down another 250x. You can't eat 250x less (or get 250x improvement efficiency in making that food). Your car isn't going to weigh 4kg anytime soon. And so on... There are real physical limits on anything tangible.
– awjlogan
1 hour ago
3
There is more to capitalism than maximizing profit. A competent business position would be to ensure sustainability of the business, such that continuous profit is assured over the life span of the company. e.g. don't clear cut every tree as a lumbermill.
– Drunk Cynic
1 hour ago
1
@awjlogan - I see your point. Will amend accordingly. However, you're missing the point on some things, too. Yes, some areas can't be improved 250x (and I'm not attached to that number), but they don't have to. Food we grow in excessive excess, and already cheaply. Maybe it's time to improve refrigeration again? so that we can store food indefinitely? Obviously physics limits us severely, but then again - car has utility, but not much versatility, for example. That's why you can still replace yours every year, but model from 2000 is still perfectly adequate, unlike your smartphone.
– AcePL
52 mins ago
@DrunkCynic - I agree, obviously. My answer is necessary an oversimplification to highlight the point OP is asking about. I will think on how to amend it to keep it simple and include your criticism. Thanks.
– AcePL
49 mins ago
1
@AcePL The problem is you picked an example which is semiconductor based, and as such was a very immature technology and hence had massive room for improvement. Refridgeration is very mature. You could invest a huge sum of money to get a % or two gain in efficiency, but again there's a fundamental limit on the efficiency of the heat cycle. That is the question that is being asked - you can asymptotically approach this limit (growth), but your gains become less and less and more expensive as you get closer.
– awjlogan
31 mins ago
4
4
Yes, it's impossible to apply that to everything because it's not logical. Your phone is not going to be scaled down another 250x. You can't eat 250x less (or get 250x improvement efficiency in making that food). Your car isn't going to weigh 4kg anytime soon. And so on... There are real physical limits on anything tangible.
– awjlogan
1 hour ago
Yes, it's impossible to apply that to everything because it's not logical. Your phone is not going to be scaled down another 250x. You can't eat 250x less (or get 250x improvement efficiency in making that food). Your car isn't going to weigh 4kg anytime soon. And so on... There are real physical limits on anything tangible.
– awjlogan
1 hour ago
3
3
There is more to capitalism than maximizing profit. A competent business position would be to ensure sustainability of the business, such that continuous profit is assured over the life span of the company. e.g. don't clear cut every tree as a lumbermill.
– Drunk Cynic
1 hour ago
There is more to capitalism than maximizing profit. A competent business position would be to ensure sustainability of the business, such that continuous profit is assured over the life span of the company. e.g. don't clear cut every tree as a lumbermill.
– Drunk Cynic
1 hour ago
1
1
@awjlogan - I see your point. Will amend accordingly. However, you're missing the point on some things, too. Yes, some areas can't be improved 250x (and I'm not attached to that number), but they don't have to. Food we grow in excessive excess, and already cheaply. Maybe it's time to improve refrigeration again? so that we can store food indefinitely? Obviously physics limits us severely, but then again - car has utility, but not much versatility, for example. That's why you can still replace yours every year, but model from 2000 is still perfectly adequate, unlike your smartphone.
– AcePL
52 mins ago
@awjlogan - I see your point. Will amend accordingly. However, you're missing the point on some things, too. Yes, some areas can't be improved 250x (and I'm not attached to that number), but they don't have to. Food we grow in excessive excess, and already cheaply. Maybe it's time to improve refrigeration again? so that we can store food indefinitely? Obviously physics limits us severely, but then again - car has utility, but not much versatility, for example. That's why you can still replace yours every year, but model from 2000 is still perfectly adequate, unlike your smartphone.
– AcePL
52 mins ago
@DrunkCynic - I agree, obviously. My answer is necessary an oversimplification to highlight the point OP is asking about. I will think on how to amend it to keep it simple and include your criticism. Thanks.
– AcePL
49 mins ago
@DrunkCynic - I agree, obviously. My answer is necessary an oversimplification to highlight the point OP is asking about. I will think on how to amend it to keep it simple and include your criticism. Thanks.
– AcePL
49 mins ago
1
1
@AcePL The problem is you picked an example which is semiconductor based, and as such was a very immature technology and hence had massive room for improvement. Refridgeration is very mature. You could invest a huge sum of money to get a % or two gain in efficiency, but again there's a fundamental limit on the efficiency of the heat cycle. That is the question that is being asked - you can asymptotically approach this limit (growth), but your gains become less and less and more expensive as you get closer.
– awjlogan
31 mins ago
@AcePL The problem is you picked an example which is semiconductor based, and as such was a very immature technology and hence had massive room for improvement. Refridgeration is very mature. You could invest a huge sum of money to get a % or two gain in efficiency, but again there's a fundamental limit on the efficiency of the heat cycle. That is the question that is being asked - you can asymptotically approach this limit (growth), but your gains become less and less and more expensive as you get closer.
– awjlogan
31 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
I would like to (sort-of) challenge one of the premises of the question, namely that resources are finite, and I have a strong and weak version of the challenge.
The Weak Version
I mean, sure, there's only so much matter in the planet, and only so much of it is useful for our current purposes. Whether you think the end is in decades, centuries, or millenia, anyone who can count more than the sum of their fingers and toes can look ahead to the end of the tunnel. But human ingenuity is also a resource, and human creativity is unbounded.
Think about it. Finance? Law? Software? These things are huge sectors of modern economies and they barely consume any physical resources at all. Trilarion's upvoted answer focuses a lot on the service sector, another great example. How much of our resources today exist in the form of intellectual property?
I'm not sure how the theory plays out, but in practice we've already begun to pivot in this direction more and more. N.B. that's exactly what capitalism says should happen: as physical resources become scarcer their value increases and we either have to live with shortages... or pivot to something cheaper.
The Strong Version
Which coexists with the version above: we'll never run out of resources before something else happens.
That something else might be the extinction of the human race, space travel/colonization, digitization of consciousness, whatever. Why aren't we doing more in those spheres now (at least the more positive ones)? Because it isn't economically viable. But again, as physical resources become scarcer their value will increase, until it becomes more viable to strip mine asteroids than continue to deplete the Earth.
There are some holes in the strong version: if agents are allowed to proceed to maximize their utility without regard to negative externalities generated (e.g. a factory can pollute with no consequence) then the incentives are warped. If the ecosystem that sustains life here is wrecked by e.g. AGW then game over. You can probably think of others, but the point is that continuing current trends forward unboundedly is likely selling humankind short.
add a comment |
I would like to (sort-of) challenge one of the premises of the question, namely that resources are finite, and I have a strong and weak version of the challenge.
The Weak Version
I mean, sure, there's only so much matter in the planet, and only so much of it is useful for our current purposes. Whether you think the end is in decades, centuries, or millenia, anyone who can count more than the sum of their fingers and toes can look ahead to the end of the tunnel. But human ingenuity is also a resource, and human creativity is unbounded.
Think about it. Finance? Law? Software? These things are huge sectors of modern economies and they barely consume any physical resources at all. Trilarion's upvoted answer focuses a lot on the service sector, another great example. How much of our resources today exist in the form of intellectual property?
I'm not sure how the theory plays out, but in practice we've already begun to pivot in this direction more and more. N.B. that's exactly what capitalism says should happen: as physical resources become scarcer their value increases and we either have to live with shortages... or pivot to something cheaper.
The Strong Version
Which coexists with the version above: we'll never run out of resources before something else happens.
That something else might be the extinction of the human race, space travel/colonization, digitization of consciousness, whatever. Why aren't we doing more in those spheres now (at least the more positive ones)? Because it isn't economically viable. But again, as physical resources become scarcer their value will increase, until it becomes more viable to strip mine asteroids than continue to deplete the Earth.
There are some holes in the strong version: if agents are allowed to proceed to maximize their utility without regard to negative externalities generated (e.g. a factory can pollute with no consequence) then the incentives are warped. If the ecosystem that sustains life here is wrecked by e.g. AGW then game over. You can probably think of others, but the point is that continuing current trends forward unboundedly is likely selling humankind short.
add a comment |
I would like to (sort-of) challenge one of the premises of the question, namely that resources are finite, and I have a strong and weak version of the challenge.
The Weak Version
I mean, sure, there's only so much matter in the planet, and only so much of it is useful for our current purposes. Whether you think the end is in decades, centuries, or millenia, anyone who can count more than the sum of their fingers and toes can look ahead to the end of the tunnel. But human ingenuity is also a resource, and human creativity is unbounded.
Think about it. Finance? Law? Software? These things are huge sectors of modern economies and they barely consume any physical resources at all. Trilarion's upvoted answer focuses a lot on the service sector, another great example. How much of our resources today exist in the form of intellectual property?
I'm not sure how the theory plays out, but in practice we've already begun to pivot in this direction more and more. N.B. that's exactly what capitalism says should happen: as physical resources become scarcer their value increases and we either have to live with shortages... or pivot to something cheaper.
The Strong Version
Which coexists with the version above: we'll never run out of resources before something else happens.
That something else might be the extinction of the human race, space travel/colonization, digitization of consciousness, whatever. Why aren't we doing more in those spheres now (at least the more positive ones)? Because it isn't economically viable. But again, as physical resources become scarcer their value will increase, until it becomes more viable to strip mine asteroids than continue to deplete the Earth.
There are some holes in the strong version: if agents are allowed to proceed to maximize their utility without regard to negative externalities generated (e.g. a factory can pollute with no consequence) then the incentives are warped. If the ecosystem that sustains life here is wrecked by e.g. AGW then game over. You can probably think of others, but the point is that continuing current trends forward unboundedly is likely selling humankind short.
I would like to (sort-of) challenge one of the premises of the question, namely that resources are finite, and I have a strong and weak version of the challenge.
The Weak Version
I mean, sure, there's only so much matter in the planet, and only so much of it is useful for our current purposes. Whether you think the end is in decades, centuries, or millenia, anyone who can count more than the sum of their fingers and toes can look ahead to the end of the tunnel. But human ingenuity is also a resource, and human creativity is unbounded.
Think about it. Finance? Law? Software? These things are huge sectors of modern economies and they barely consume any physical resources at all. Trilarion's upvoted answer focuses a lot on the service sector, another great example. How much of our resources today exist in the form of intellectual property?
I'm not sure how the theory plays out, but in practice we've already begun to pivot in this direction more and more. N.B. that's exactly what capitalism says should happen: as physical resources become scarcer their value increases and we either have to live with shortages... or pivot to something cheaper.
The Strong Version
Which coexists with the version above: we'll never run out of resources before something else happens.
That something else might be the extinction of the human race, space travel/colonization, digitization of consciousness, whatever. Why aren't we doing more in those spheres now (at least the more positive ones)? Because it isn't economically viable. But again, as physical resources become scarcer their value will increase, until it becomes more viable to strip mine asteroids than continue to deplete the Earth.
There are some holes in the strong version: if agents are allowed to proceed to maximize their utility without regard to negative externalities generated (e.g. a factory can pollute with no consequence) then the incentives are warped. If the ecosystem that sustains life here is wrecked by e.g. AGW then game over. You can probably think of others, but the point is that continuing current trends forward unboundedly is likely selling humankind short.
edited 46 mins ago
answered 55 mins ago
Jared SmithJared Smith
3,88821118
3,88821118
add a comment |
add a comment |
Capitalism's answer is a global crisis, which weakens world economic powers and redistributes resource consumption. Such a crisis may be either peaceful (like the Great Depression in the US) or non-peaceful (like WWI, for example - when growing economic powers - the German bloc - tried to overpower existing economic powers - the Western world mainly).
So, in fact, there is no such problem in capitalism - its decision is stored inside.
About "growth in services economics, which is unlimited". Let's consider, why it is naive.
The process itself is described very well in @Trilarion's answer. The answer describes so-called "post-industrial" economics.
What's wrong with it?
At first, should notice, that graphics (services percent) are true, but for very special countries from western world, which have such huge services sector (US and UK are most known). You may look at the second graph. We now, that main part of UK GDP is formed by banking sector and services. From the first view, it sounds good - it is a pure service sector, we are just servicing our and foreign banks money, giving credits, so on.
But - of course, there is a 'but' - the financial sector cannot live in a vacuum. When it grows too much over REAL sector, we obtain a financial bubble. It may be a big amount of credits, an exchange bubble, or something else, but what we have? We have an economic sector which growth, in fact, is a fake.
A bright example: Brexit. You may, again, look at the second graph from @Trilarion's answer. The UK have a huge financial sector (result of M. Thatcher politics of 'de-industrializing'). What Brexit means? It means (and Deutsche Bank already have done it), that EU banks will stop to use UK bank services, because of UK is exiting, and retrieve their finances from UK back to homeland. How do you think, this will affect UK bank sector (and, as it is huge, huge part of economics)? It will collapse. You may say - but what's the difference between EU and UK, if both have a financial sector and banks? Yes, both have, but EU do have a big REAL sector (which can be an investment target to the banks, and supports it) and UK does not.
To conclude. That theory - about constant growth, provided with services constant growth - is applicable in a one-hegemony-world, which is globalised. While hegemonic growth its services, which is consumed by others, others, in return, provide something REAL. A bright example is the 'late-Washington' world - before Russian comeback to global powers. But now, as the world becomes multi-polar again, this is not more than a pure theory.
3
Capitalism includes something called "economic cycle". Crisis - such as you mention - is an extreme which happens when said "economic cycle" has been unbalanced by outside intervention (which intervention is by definition non-capitalistic) and balance needs to be restored. The longer and more intensive is the intervention into the normal cycle the more extreme is the crisis. So saying that capitalism's answer is crysis is akin to saying one needs to be sick every so often in order to be well... Thus your answer, coming from faulty assumption, does not really answer the question.
– AcePL
2 hours ago
2
@AcePL "intervention is by definition non-capitalistic" - who, you think, do such intervention? Aliens? What 'intervention' cause Great Depresion? Or 2008 crisis in US banks? Or .com crisis?
– user2501323
2 hours ago
People, of course, but my point is still valid - intervention is not capitalism. It's its antithesis, in fact.
– AcePL
2 hours ago
3
People?! Hmm, I see. So, capitalism is a thing in a vacuum, and evil people are trying to break it? Capitalism is a system, invented by people and used by people. What do you call intervention in this terms?
– user2501323
2 hours ago
1
Ho-ho, understand you, you are talking about pure (sometimes called wild) capitalism. But you are mistaking when talk about "non-agression principle". The winning of the most advanced companies is the main principle of capitalism. Without it, it is something else, not capitalism. Can you give any example? Is Federal Reserve System a central instrument, or not, by the side?
– user2501323
2 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
Capitalism's answer is a global crisis, which weakens world economic powers and redistributes resource consumption. Such a crisis may be either peaceful (like the Great Depression in the US) or non-peaceful (like WWI, for example - when growing economic powers - the German bloc - tried to overpower existing economic powers - the Western world mainly).
So, in fact, there is no such problem in capitalism - its decision is stored inside.
About "growth in services economics, which is unlimited". Let's consider, why it is naive.
The process itself is described very well in @Trilarion's answer. The answer describes so-called "post-industrial" economics.
What's wrong with it?
At first, should notice, that graphics (services percent) are true, but for very special countries from western world, which have such huge services sector (US and UK are most known). You may look at the second graph. We now, that main part of UK GDP is formed by banking sector and services. From the first view, it sounds good - it is a pure service sector, we are just servicing our and foreign banks money, giving credits, so on.
But - of course, there is a 'but' - the financial sector cannot live in a vacuum. When it grows too much over REAL sector, we obtain a financial bubble. It may be a big amount of credits, an exchange bubble, or something else, but what we have? We have an economic sector which growth, in fact, is a fake.
A bright example: Brexit. You may, again, look at the second graph from @Trilarion's answer. The UK have a huge financial sector (result of M. Thatcher politics of 'de-industrializing'). What Brexit means? It means (and Deutsche Bank already have done it), that EU banks will stop to use UK bank services, because of UK is exiting, and retrieve their finances from UK back to homeland. How do you think, this will affect UK bank sector (and, as it is huge, huge part of economics)? It will collapse. You may say - but what's the difference between EU and UK, if both have a financial sector and banks? Yes, both have, but EU do have a big REAL sector (which can be an investment target to the banks, and supports it) and UK does not.
To conclude. That theory - about constant growth, provided with services constant growth - is applicable in a one-hegemony-world, which is globalised. While hegemonic growth its services, which is consumed by others, others, in return, provide something REAL. A bright example is the 'late-Washington' world - before Russian comeback to global powers. But now, as the world becomes multi-polar again, this is not more than a pure theory.
3
Capitalism includes something called "economic cycle". Crisis - such as you mention - is an extreme which happens when said "economic cycle" has been unbalanced by outside intervention (which intervention is by definition non-capitalistic) and balance needs to be restored. The longer and more intensive is the intervention into the normal cycle the more extreme is the crisis. So saying that capitalism's answer is crysis is akin to saying one needs to be sick every so often in order to be well... Thus your answer, coming from faulty assumption, does not really answer the question.
– AcePL
2 hours ago
2
@AcePL "intervention is by definition non-capitalistic" - who, you think, do such intervention? Aliens? What 'intervention' cause Great Depresion? Or 2008 crisis in US banks? Or .com crisis?
– user2501323
2 hours ago
People, of course, but my point is still valid - intervention is not capitalism. It's its antithesis, in fact.
– AcePL
2 hours ago
3
People?! Hmm, I see. So, capitalism is a thing in a vacuum, and evil people are trying to break it? Capitalism is a system, invented by people and used by people. What do you call intervention in this terms?
– user2501323
2 hours ago
1
Ho-ho, understand you, you are talking about pure (sometimes called wild) capitalism. But you are mistaking when talk about "non-agression principle". The winning of the most advanced companies is the main principle of capitalism. Without it, it is something else, not capitalism. Can you give any example? Is Federal Reserve System a central instrument, or not, by the side?
– user2501323
2 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
Capitalism's answer is a global crisis, which weakens world economic powers and redistributes resource consumption. Such a crisis may be either peaceful (like the Great Depression in the US) or non-peaceful (like WWI, for example - when growing economic powers - the German bloc - tried to overpower existing economic powers - the Western world mainly).
So, in fact, there is no such problem in capitalism - its decision is stored inside.
About "growth in services economics, which is unlimited". Let's consider, why it is naive.
The process itself is described very well in @Trilarion's answer. The answer describes so-called "post-industrial" economics.
What's wrong with it?
At first, should notice, that graphics (services percent) are true, but for very special countries from western world, which have such huge services sector (US and UK are most known). You may look at the second graph. We now, that main part of UK GDP is formed by banking sector and services. From the first view, it sounds good - it is a pure service sector, we are just servicing our and foreign banks money, giving credits, so on.
But - of course, there is a 'but' - the financial sector cannot live in a vacuum. When it grows too much over REAL sector, we obtain a financial bubble. It may be a big amount of credits, an exchange bubble, or something else, but what we have? We have an economic sector which growth, in fact, is a fake.
A bright example: Brexit. You may, again, look at the second graph from @Trilarion's answer. The UK have a huge financial sector (result of M. Thatcher politics of 'de-industrializing'). What Brexit means? It means (and Deutsche Bank already have done it), that EU banks will stop to use UK bank services, because of UK is exiting, and retrieve their finances from UK back to homeland. How do you think, this will affect UK bank sector (and, as it is huge, huge part of economics)? It will collapse. You may say - but what's the difference between EU and UK, if both have a financial sector and banks? Yes, both have, but EU do have a big REAL sector (which can be an investment target to the banks, and supports it) and UK does not.
To conclude. That theory - about constant growth, provided with services constant growth - is applicable in a one-hegemony-world, which is globalised. While hegemonic growth its services, which is consumed by others, others, in return, provide something REAL. A bright example is the 'late-Washington' world - before Russian comeback to global powers. But now, as the world becomes multi-polar again, this is not more than a pure theory.
Capitalism's answer is a global crisis, which weakens world economic powers and redistributes resource consumption. Such a crisis may be either peaceful (like the Great Depression in the US) or non-peaceful (like WWI, for example - when growing economic powers - the German bloc - tried to overpower existing economic powers - the Western world mainly).
So, in fact, there is no such problem in capitalism - its decision is stored inside.
About "growth in services economics, which is unlimited". Let's consider, why it is naive.
The process itself is described very well in @Trilarion's answer. The answer describes so-called "post-industrial" economics.
What's wrong with it?
At first, should notice, that graphics (services percent) are true, but for very special countries from western world, which have such huge services sector (US and UK are most known). You may look at the second graph. We now, that main part of UK GDP is formed by banking sector and services. From the first view, it sounds good - it is a pure service sector, we are just servicing our and foreign banks money, giving credits, so on.
But - of course, there is a 'but' - the financial sector cannot live in a vacuum. When it grows too much over REAL sector, we obtain a financial bubble. It may be a big amount of credits, an exchange bubble, or something else, but what we have? We have an economic sector which growth, in fact, is a fake.
A bright example: Brexit. You may, again, look at the second graph from @Trilarion's answer. The UK have a huge financial sector (result of M. Thatcher politics of 'de-industrializing'). What Brexit means? It means (and Deutsche Bank already have done it), that EU banks will stop to use UK bank services, because of UK is exiting, and retrieve their finances from UK back to homeland. How do you think, this will affect UK bank sector (and, as it is huge, huge part of economics)? It will collapse. You may say - but what's the difference between EU and UK, if both have a financial sector and banks? Yes, both have, but EU do have a big REAL sector (which can be an investment target to the banks, and supports it) and UK does not.
To conclude. That theory - about constant growth, provided with services constant growth - is applicable in a one-hegemony-world, which is globalised. While hegemonic growth its services, which is consumed by others, others, in return, provide something REAL. A bright example is the 'late-Washington' world - before Russian comeback to global powers. But now, as the world becomes multi-polar again, this is not more than a pure theory.
edited 56 mins ago
V2Blast
1216
1216
answered 4 hours ago
user2501323user2501323
1,066424
1,066424
3
Capitalism includes something called "economic cycle". Crisis - such as you mention - is an extreme which happens when said "economic cycle" has been unbalanced by outside intervention (which intervention is by definition non-capitalistic) and balance needs to be restored. The longer and more intensive is the intervention into the normal cycle the more extreme is the crisis. So saying that capitalism's answer is crysis is akin to saying one needs to be sick every so often in order to be well... Thus your answer, coming from faulty assumption, does not really answer the question.
– AcePL
2 hours ago
2
@AcePL "intervention is by definition non-capitalistic" - who, you think, do such intervention? Aliens? What 'intervention' cause Great Depresion? Or 2008 crisis in US banks? Or .com crisis?
– user2501323
2 hours ago
People, of course, but my point is still valid - intervention is not capitalism. It's its antithesis, in fact.
– AcePL
2 hours ago
3
People?! Hmm, I see. So, capitalism is a thing in a vacuum, and evil people are trying to break it? Capitalism is a system, invented by people and used by people. What do you call intervention in this terms?
– user2501323
2 hours ago
1
Ho-ho, understand you, you are talking about pure (sometimes called wild) capitalism. But you are mistaking when talk about "non-agression principle". The winning of the most advanced companies is the main principle of capitalism. Without it, it is something else, not capitalism. Can you give any example? Is Federal Reserve System a central instrument, or not, by the side?
– user2501323
2 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
3
Capitalism includes something called "economic cycle". Crisis - such as you mention - is an extreme which happens when said "economic cycle" has been unbalanced by outside intervention (which intervention is by definition non-capitalistic) and balance needs to be restored. The longer and more intensive is the intervention into the normal cycle the more extreme is the crisis. So saying that capitalism's answer is crysis is akin to saying one needs to be sick every so often in order to be well... Thus your answer, coming from faulty assumption, does not really answer the question.
– AcePL
2 hours ago
2
@AcePL "intervention is by definition non-capitalistic" - who, you think, do such intervention? Aliens? What 'intervention' cause Great Depresion? Or 2008 crisis in US banks? Or .com crisis?
– user2501323
2 hours ago
People, of course, but my point is still valid - intervention is not capitalism. It's its antithesis, in fact.
– AcePL
2 hours ago
3
People?! Hmm, I see. So, capitalism is a thing in a vacuum, and evil people are trying to break it? Capitalism is a system, invented by people and used by people. What do you call intervention in this terms?
– user2501323
2 hours ago
1
Ho-ho, understand you, you are talking about pure (sometimes called wild) capitalism. But you are mistaking when talk about "non-agression principle". The winning of the most advanced companies is the main principle of capitalism. Without it, it is something else, not capitalism. Can you give any example? Is Federal Reserve System a central instrument, or not, by the side?
– user2501323
2 hours ago
3
3
Capitalism includes something called "economic cycle". Crisis - such as you mention - is an extreme which happens when said "economic cycle" has been unbalanced by outside intervention (which intervention is by definition non-capitalistic) and balance needs to be restored. The longer and more intensive is the intervention into the normal cycle the more extreme is the crisis. So saying that capitalism's answer is crysis is akin to saying one needs to be sick every so often in order to be well... Thus your answer, coming from faulty assumption, does not really answer the question.
– AcePL
2 hours ago
Capitalism includes something called "economic cycle". Crisis - such as you mention - is an extreme which happens when said "economic cycle" has been unbalanced by outside intervention (which intervention is by definition non-capitalistic) and balance needs to be restored. The longer and more intensive is the intervention into the normal cycle the more extreme is the crisis. So saying that capitalism's answer is crysis is akin to saying one needs to be sick every so often in order to be well... Thus your answer, coming from faulty assumption, does not really answer the question.
– AcePL
2 hours ago
2
2
@AcePL "intervention is by definition non-capitalistic" - who, you think, do such intervention? Aliens? What 'intervention' cause Great Depresion? Or 2008 crisis in US banks? Or .com crisis?
– user2501323
2 hours ago
@AcePL "intervention is by definition non-capitalistic" - who, you think, do such intervention? Aliens? What 'intervention' cause Great Depresion? Or 2008 crisis in US banks? Or .com crisis?
– user2501323
2 hours ago
People, of course, but my point is still valid - intervention is not capitalism. It's its antithesis, in fact.
– AcePL
2 hours ago
People, of course, but my point is still valid - intervention is not capitalism. It's its antithesis, in fact.
– AcePL
2 hours ago
3
3
People?! Hmm, I see. So, capitalism is a thing in a vacuum, and evil people are trying to break it? Capitalism is a system, invented by people and used by people. What do you call intervention in this terms?
– user2501323
2 hours ago
People?! Hmm, I see. So, capitalism is a thing in a vacuum, and evil people are trying to break it? Capitalism is a system, invented by people and used by people. What do you call intervention in this terms?
– user2501323
2 hours ago
1
1
Ho-ho, understand you, you are talking about pure (sometimes called wild) capitalism. But you are mistaking when talk about "non-agression principle". The winning of the most advanced companies is the main principle of capitalism. Without it, it is something else, not capitalism. Can you give any example? Is Federal Reserve System a central instrument, or not, by the side?
– user2501323
2 hours ago
Ho-ho, understand you, you are talking about pure (sometimes called wild) capitalism. But you are mistaking when talk about "non-agression principle". The winning of the most advanced companies is the main principle of capitalism. Without it, it is something else, not capitalism. Can you give any example? Is Federal Reserve System a central instrument, or not, by the side?
– user2501323
2 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
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17
I'd say capitalism deals with that the same way you deal with the fact you're going to die: by not thinking too much about it.
– Rekesoft
5 hours ago
1
For context, people have been loudly complaining about "finate resources" and the need to stop growth ever since Thomas Malthus in 1798. So far, 100% of them have been proven wrong, and their arguments fallacious. This isn't some profound newly discovered truth by an enterprising journalist (the author of the linked article isn't even an economist or scientist), it's just the same old 200+ year old rehashed fear.
– user4012
3 hours ago
If we run out of a particular resource, then now there's a market need for an alternative, and someone will fill that need because they'll be able to profit off of it
– Brian Leishman
1 hour ago
4
Why is the claim "Capitalism requires a constantly expanding production and consumption of goods" any more true than "Command economies require a constantly expanding production and consumption of goods" or "Communism requires a constantly expanding production and consumption of goods"? Some level of production of goods is necessary in any economic system, and much of that production must scale with population growth, but why is that logic any different in a capitalist system to a non-capitalist one? I can see no reason.
– Mark Amery
57 mins ago