Is a secondary dominant always a seventh chord?
I noticed that secondary dominants are usually dominant seventh chords. Can you just make a secondary dominant a triad, or is it "required" to make it a seventh chord? (also I think this chord is always major).
chords harmony
asked 3 hours ago
foreyezforeyez
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I noticed that secondary dominants are usually dominant seventh chords. Can you just make a secondary dominant a triad, or is it "required" to make it a seventh chord? (also I think this chord is always major).
chords harmony
asked 3 hours ago
foreyezforeyez
4,39632475
add a comment |
I noticed that secondary dominants are usually dominant seventh chords. Can you just make a secondary dominant a triad, or is it "required" to make it a seventh chord? (also I think this chord is always major).
chords harmony
asked 3 hours ago
foreyezforeyez
4,39632475
I noticed that secondary dominants are usually dominant seventh chords. Can you just make a secondary dominant a triad, or is it "required" to make it a seventh chord? (also I think this chord is always major).
chords harmony
chords harmony
asked 3 hours ago
foreyezforeyez
4,39632475
asked 3 hours ago
foreyezforeyez
4,39632475
asked 3 hours ago
foreyezforeyez
4,39632475
asked 3 hours ago
foreyezforeyez
4,39632475
asked 3 hours ago
foreyezforeyez
4,39632475
4,39632475
add a comment |
add a comment |
3 Answers
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No, secondary dominants aren't required to be seventh chords. They can be plain triads (e.g. V/vi). They also aren't required to be major or have a major triad--I've heard plenty of vii°7/V chords, and those are diminished 7th chords.
answered 2 hours ago
DekkadeciDekkadeci
4,79121220
The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.
– piiperi
1 hour ago
add a comment |
"Required" by what? Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? ;)
Wikipedia's example shows a D major without a seventh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord
In this example, I think the F# note alone works in some kind of a secondary dominant'ish function, even though it's not even a chord.
On the next line I added more simultaneous notes, leaving less room for imagination. Do these sound secondary-dominantish enough to you?
Some more:
To my ear, the one with the C-F# tritone gives the strongest secondary dominant vibes, followed by the D-F# version. There are at least two ways to think about it. What is the implied "true" chord there - is it D7, or ... F#dim7? In the Barry Harris way of thinking, the dim7 is the "real" dominant.
answered 2 hours ago
piiperipiiperi
7516
Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?
– topo morto
55 mins ago
add a comment |
The fact that a secondary dominant, when a major triad, has a M3 in it, which usually moves to the root of the next chord (V) is sufficient. With that b7, there's the tritone which convincingly moves things on, but not needed. And as @piiperi says, that secondary dominant doesn't even need to be major or minor - diminished chords have the propensity to act as pivotal chords in their own right, and take the music into other modulations.
Even when the v/V is minor, there's still enough scope for it to work, as it sometimes does when something in a minor key only uses natural minor notes. Not as convincing, but still feasible. It's good that we are now moving away from the concept of rigid rules, which don't exist these days! I nearly said never, but a few centuries ago, adherence was expected!
answered 22 mins ago
TimTim
97.8k10100251
add a comment |
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
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No, secondary dominants aren't required to be seventh chords. They can be plain triads (e.g. V/vi). They also aren't required to be major or have a major triad--I've heard plenty of vii°7/V chords, and those are diminished 7th chords.
answered 2 hours ago
DekkadeciDekkadeci
4,79121220
The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.
– piiperi
1 hour ago
add a comment |
No, secondary dominants aren't required to be seventh chords. They can be plain triads (e.g. V/vi). They also aren't required to be major or have a major triad--I've heard plenty of vii°7/V chords, and those are diminished 7th chords.
answered 2 hours ago
DekkadeciDekkadeci
4,79121220
The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.
– piiperi
1 hour ago
add a comment |
No, secondary dominants aren't required to be seventh chords. They can be plain triads (e.g. V/vi). They also aren't required to be major or have a major triad--I've heard plenty of vii°7/V chords, and those are diminished 7th chords.
answered 2 hours ago
DekkadeciDekkadeci
4,79121220
No, secondary dominants aren't required to be seventh chords. They can be plain triads (e.g. V/vi). They also aren't required to be major or have a major triad--I've heard plenty of vii°7/V chords, and those are diminished 7th chords.
answered 2 hours ago
DekkadeciDekkadeci
4,79121220
answered 2 hours ago
DekkadeciDekkadeci
4,79121220
answered 2 hours ago
DekkadeciDekkadeci
4,79121220
answered 2 hours ago
DekkadeciDekkadeci
4,79121220
4,79121220
The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.
– piiperi
1 hour ago
add a comment |
The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.
– piiperi
1 hour ago
The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.
– piiperi
1 hour ago
The "vii°7" would be the Barry Harris style dominant. Barry Harris seems to be somewhat of a hot (or at least lukewarm) topic on teh interwebz.
– piiperi
1 hour ago
add a comment |
"Required" by what? Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? ;)
Wikipedia's example shows a D major without a seventh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord
In this example, I think the F# note alone works in some kind of a secondary dominant'ish function, even though it's not even a chord.
On the next line I added more simultaneous notes, leaving less room for imagination. Do these sound secondary-dominantish enough to you?
Some more:
To my ear, the one with the C-F# tritone gives the strongest secondary dominant vibes, followed by the D-F# version. There are at least two ways to think about it. What is the implied "true" chord there - is it D7, or ... F#dim7? In the Barry Harris way of thinking, the dim7 is the "real" dominant.
answered 2 hours ago
piiperipiiperi
7516
Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?
– topo morto
55 mins ago
add a comment |
"Required" by what? Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? ;)
Wikipedia's example shows a D major without a seventh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord
In this example, I think the F# note alone works in some kind of a secondary dominant'ish function, even though it's not even a chord.
On the next line I added more simultaneous notes, leaving less room for imagination. Do these sound secondary-dominantish enough to you?
Some more:
To my ear, the one with the C-F# tritone gives the strongest secondary dominant vibes, followed by the D-F# version. There are at least two ways to think about it. What is the implied "true" chord there - is it D7, or ... F#dim7? In the Barry Harris way of thinking, the dim7 is the "real" dominant.
answered 2 hours ago
piiperipiiperi
7516
Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?
– topo morto
55 mins ago
add a comment |
"Required" by what? Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? ;)
Wikipedia's example shows a D major without a seventh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord
In this example, I think the F# note alone works in some kind of a secondary dominant'ish function, even though it's not even a chord.
On the next line I added more simultaneous notes, leaving less room for imagination. Do these sound secondary-dominantish enough to you?
Some more:
To my ear, the one with the C-F# tritone gives the strongest secondary dominant vibes, followed by the D-F# version. There are at least two ways to think about it. What is the implied "true" chord there - is it D7, or ... F#dim7? In the Barry Harris way of thinking, the dim7 is the "real" dominant.
answered 2 hours ago
piiperipiiperi
7516
"Required" by what? Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? ;)
Wikipedia's example shows a D major without a seventh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_chord
In this example, I think the F# note alone works in some kind of a secondary dominant'ish function, even though it's not even a chord.
On the next line I added more simultaneous notes, leaving less room for imagination. Do these sound secondary-dominantish enough to you?
Some more:
To my ear, the one with the C-F# tritone gives the strongest secondary dominant vibes, followed by the D-F# version. There are at least two ways to think about it. What is the implied "true" chord there - is it D7, or ... F#dim7? In the Barry Harris way of thinking, the dim7 is the "real" dominant.
answered 2 hours ago
piiperipiiperi
7516
edited 1 hour ago
answered 2 hours ago
piiperipiiperi
7516
answered 2 hours ago
piiperipiiperi
7516
answered 2 hours ago
piiperipiiperi
7516
7516
Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?
– topo morto
55 mins ago
add a comment |
Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?
– topo morto
55 mins ago
Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?
– topo morto
55 mins ago
Are you referring to some cultural convention or a law of nature or what? - it's a question about terminology, so presumably it's just asking what's commonly understood by the term..?
– topo morto
55 mins ago
add a comment |
The fact that a secondary dominant, when a major triad, has a M3 in it, which usually moves to the root of the next chord (V) is sufficient. With that b7, there's the tritone which convincingly moves things on, but not needed. And as @piiperi says, that secondary dominant doesn't even need to be major or minor - diminished chords have the propensity to act as pivotal chords in their own right, and take the music into other modulations.
Even when the v/V is minor, there's still enough scope for it to work, as it sometimes does when something in a minor key only uses natural minor notes. Not as convincing, but still feasible. It's good that we are now moving away from the concept of rigid rules, which don't exist these days! I nearly said never, but a few centuries ago, adherence was expected!
answered 22 mins ago
TimTim
97.8k10100251
add a comment |
The fact that a secondary dominant, when a major triad, has a M3 in it, which usually moves to the root of the next chord (V) is sufficient. With that b7, there's the tritone which convincingly moves things on, but not needed. And as @piiperi says, that secondary dominant doesn't even need to be major or minor - diminished chords have the propensity to act as pivotal chords in their own right, and take the music into other modulations.
Even when the v/V is minor, there's still enough scope for it to work, as it sometimes does when something in a minor key only uses natural minor notes. Not as convincing, but still feasible. It's good that we are now moving away from the concept of rigid rules, which don't exist these days! I nearly said never, but a few centuries ago, adherence was expected!
answered 22 mins ago
TimTim
97.8k10100251
add a comment |
The fact that a secondary dominant, when a major triad, has a M3 in it, which usually moves to the root of the next chord (V) is sufficient. With that b7, there's the tritone which convincingly moves things on, but not needed. And as @piiperi says, that secondary dominant doesn't even need to be major or minor - diminished chords have the propensity to act as pivotal chords in their own right, and take the music into other modulations.
Even when the v/V is minor, there's still enough scope for it to work, as it sometimes does when something in a minor key only uses natural minor notes. Not as convincing, but still feasible. It's good that we are now moving away from the concept of rigid rules, which don't exist these days! I nearly said never, but a few centuries ago, adherence was expected!
answered 22 mins ago
TimTim
97.8k10100251
The fact that a secondary dominant, when a major triad, has a M3 in it, which usually moves to the root of the next chord (V) is sufficient. With that b7, there's the tritone which convincingly moves things on, but not needed. And as @piiperi says, that secondary dominant doesn't even need to be major or minor - diminished chords have the propensity to act as pivotal chords in their own right, and take the music into other modulations.
Even when the v/V is minor, there's still enough scope for it to work, as it sometimes does when something in a minor key only uses natural minor notes. Not as convincing, but still feasible. It's good that we are now moving away from the concept of rigid rules, which don't exist these days! I nearly said never, but a few centuries ago, adherence was expected!
answered 22 mins ago
TimTim
97.8k10100251
answered 22 mins ago
TimTim
97.8k10100251
answered 22 mins ago
TimTim
97.8k10100251
answered 22 mins ago
TimTim
97.8k10100251
97.8k10100251
add a comment |
add a comment |
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