Is Screenshot Time-tracking Common?












19















I am a freelance developer. When I work on projects for a client I tend to bill to the half-hour, which has been fine. Additionally, I do my best to track each type of thing "research", "coding", "lunch", "break", etc so the client can see an itemized version of my hourly. This seems to bring them some comfort.



Recently, I've had a few clients approach me but ask that I use screenshotting and/or keylogging on my home computer (which is also my work computer). Naturally, this makes me uncomfortable. The client thinks I am lazy. To me,




  1. the risk of exposing another clients work via (2) - software becomes unpatched leaving a giant hole in my system or a screenshot of a chat with another client

  2. security implications of installing nanny-software that is effectively a RAT

  3. the direct implication the client does not trust me


really bother me.



Bringing up my portfolio of satisfied clients (who do not use tracking) does not seem persuasive. If you do not trust me, why would you take the time to hire me? I am not desperate for work.



I have been in the industry a number of years at this point. I have delivered a lot of software on time and on budget. I know when hours are "deserved" vs "I overshot this, I guess I'll give them some hours for free".



Is this type of requirement common? Should I just suck it up because it's work? It makes me very uncomfortable. It signals to me a "sweat shop" mentality driven by micromanaging metrics rather than getting good software at an agreed upon price. Do people request a video feed of their mechanic fixing their car? Do they request an itemized hourly report of the mechanic they paid a ton of money for? It seems like this problem is unique to software.










share|improve this question







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  • 1





    Are these government, government contractors, or otherwise regulated clients? I know the US Government has the right to show up at any contractor's place of work at any time to audit timecards: a friend who worked from home had an auditor show up at his house for an inspection. He had to show the current open entry corresponded to the engineering work he was doing on his screen. This extends to non-government work done by contractors (due to calculation of overhead).

    – user71659
    3 hours ago








  • 2





    It's also counterproductive, because it measures the wrong thing. My first customer paid by the hour, but internally measured lines of code produced. Since my job was to shrink the codebase so their software would fit onto a smaller device, my "productivity" was negative throughout my entire contract.

    – Simon Richter
    1 hour ago













  • "The client thinks I am lazy" did they actually say that? If so, harsh.

    – user87779
    1 hour ago













  • I've been doing software development for 25+ years, much of it as a contractor and have never heard of this. If you don't need to work for them, then don't. Screw that.

    – Phil N DeBlanc
    57 mins ago






  • 1





    I know of a manager of a department of developers and designers, who started tracking productivity by viewing screens remotely, and doing antics like barging into the (open-plan) office and shouting "Hey you there, your mouse didn't move for five minutes, how dare you slacking off!". Sketching something on paper, or just thinking on what to do next, was not considered work by him. Needless to say, he was manager for a very short time, soon the whole department went together to upper management and declared that either their manager goes or the whole department resigns right then and there.

    – Val
    17 mins ago
















19















I am a freelance developer. When I work on projects for a client I tend to bill to the half-hour, which has been fine. Additionally, I do my best to track each type of thing "research", "coding", "lunch", "break", etc so the client can see an itemized version of my hourly. This seems to bring them some comfort.



Recently, I've had a few clients approach me but ask that I use screenshotting and/or keylogging on my home computer (which is also my work computer). Naturally, this makes me uncomfortable. The client thinks I am lazy. To me,




  1. the risk of exposing another clients work via (2) - software becomes unpatched leaving a giant hole in my system or a screenshot of a chat with another client

  2. security implications of installing nanny-software that is effectively a RAT

  3. the direct implication the client does not trust me


really bother me.



Bringing up my portfolio of satisfied clients (who do not use tracking) does not seem persuasive. If you do not trust me, why would you take the time to hire me? I am not desperate for work.



I have been in the industry a number of years at this point. I have delivered a lot of software on time and on budget. I know when hours are "deserved" vs "I overshot this, I guess I'll give them some hours for free".



Is this type of requirement common? Should I just suck it up because it's work? It makes me very uncomfortable. It signals to me a "sweat shop" mentality driven by micromanaging metrics rather than getting good software at an agreed upon price. Do people request a video feed of their mechanic fixing their car? Do they request an itemized hourly report of the mechanic they paid a ton of money for? It seems like this problem is unique to software.










share|improve this question







New contributor




CL40 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 1





    Are these government, government contractors, or otherwise regulated clients? I know the US Government has the right to show up at any contractor's place of work at any time to audit timecards: a friend who worked from home had an auditor show up at his house for an inspection. He had to show the current open entry corresponded to the engineering work he was doing on his screen. This extends to non-government work done by contractors (due to calculation of overhead).

    – user71659
    3 hours ago








  • 2





    It's also counterproductive, because it measures the wrong thing. My first customer paid by the hour, but internally measured lines of code produced. Since my job was to shrink the codebase so their software would fit onto a smaller device, my "productivity" was negative throughout my entire contract.

    – Simon Richter
    1 hour ago













  • "The client thinks I am lazy" did they actually say that? If so, harsh.

    – user87779
    1 hour ago













  • I've been doing software development for 25+ years, much of it as a contractor and have never heard of this. If you don't need to work for them, then don't. Screw that.

    – Phil N DeBlanc
    57 mins ago






  • 1





    I know of a manager of a department of developers and designers, who started tracking productivity by viewing screens remotely, and doing antics like barging into the (open-plan) office and shouting "Hey you there, your mouse didn't move for five minutes, how dare you slacking off!". Sketching something on paper, or just thinking on what to do next, was not considered work by him. Needless to say, he was manager for a very short time, soon the whole department went together to upper management and declared that either their manager goes or the whole department resigns right then and there.

    – Val
    17 mins ago














19












19








19


1






I am a freelance developer. When I work on projects for a client I tend to bill to the half-hour, which has been fine. Additionally, I do my best to track each type of thing "research", "coding", "lunch", "break", etc so the client can see an itemized version of my hourly. This seems to bring them some comfort.



Recently, I've had a few clients approach me but ask that I use screenshotting and/or keylogging on my home computer (which is also my work computer). Naturally, this makes me uncomfortable. The client thinks I am lazy. To me,




  1. the risk of exposing another clients work via (2) - software becomes unpatched leaving a giant hole in my system or a screenshot of a chat with another client

  2. security implications of installing nanny-software that is effectively a RAT

  3. the direct implication the client does not trust me


really bother me.



Bringing up my portfolio of satisfied clients (who do not use tracking) does not seem persuasive. If you do not trust me, why would you take the time to hire me? I am not desperate for work.



I have been in the industry a number of years at this point. I have delivered a lot of software on time and on budget. I know when hours are "deserved" vs "I overshot this, I guess I'll give them some hours for free".



Is this type of requirement common? Should I just suck it up because it's work? It makes me very uncomfortable. It signals to me a "sweat shop" mentality driven by micromanaging metrics rather than getting good software at an agreed upon price. Do people request a video feed of their mechanic fixing their car? Do they request an itemized hourly report of the mechanic they paid a ton of money for? It seems like this problem is unique to software.










share|improve this question







New contributor




CL40 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












I am a freelance developer. When I work on projects for a client I tend to bill to the half-hour, which has been fine. Additionally, I do my best to track each type of thing "research", "coding", "lunch", "break", etc so the client can see an itemized version of my hourly. This seems to bring them some comfort.



Recently, I've had a few clients approach me but ask that I use screenshotting and/or keylogging on my home computer (which is also my work computer). Naturally, this makes me uncomfortable. The client thinks I am lazy. To me,




  1. the risk of exposing another clients work via (2) - software becomes unpatched leaving a giant hole in my system or a screenshot of a chat with another client

  2. security implications of installing nanny-software that is effectively a RAT

  3. the direct implication the client does not trust me


really bother me.



Bringing up my portfolio of satisfied clients (who do not use tracking) does not seem persuasive. If you do not trust me, why would you take the time to hire me? I am not desperate for work.



I have been in the industry a number of years at this point. I have delivered a lot of software on time and on budget. I know when hours are "deserved" vs "I overshot this, I guess I'll give them some hours for free".



Is this type of requirement common? Should I just suck it up because it's work? It makes me very uncomfortable. It signals to me a "sweat shop" mentality driven by micromanaging metrics rather than getting good software at an agreed upon price. Do people request a video feed of their mechanic fixing their car? Do they request an itemized hourly report of the mechanic they paid a ton of money for? It seems like this problem is unique to software.







software-industry freelancing






share|improve this question







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CL40 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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share|improve this question







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asked 6 hours ago









CL40CL40

2014




2014




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  • 1





    Are these government, government contractors, or otherwise regulated clients? I know the US Government has the right to show up at any contractor's place of work at any time to audit timecards: a friend who worked from home had an auditor show up at his house for an inspection. He had to show the current open entry corresponded to the engineering work he was doing on his screen. This extends to non-government work done by contractors (due to calculation of overhead).

    – user71659
    3 hours ago








  • 2





    It's also counterproductive, because it measures the wrong thing. My first customer paid by the hour, but internally measured lines of code produced. Since my job was to shrink the codebase so their software would fit onto a smaller device, my "productivity" was negative throughout my entire contract.

    – Simon Richter
    1 hour ago













  • "The client thinks I am lazy" did they actually say that? If so, harsh.

    – user87779
    1 hour ago













  • I've been doing software development for 25+ years, much of it as a contractor and have never heard of this. If you don't need to work for them, then don't. Screw that.

    – Phil N DeBlanc
    57 mins ago






  • 1





    I know of a manager of a department of developers and designers, who started tracking productivity by viewing screens remotely, and doing antics like barging into the (open-plan) office and shouting "Hey you there, your mouse didn't move for five minutes, how dare you slacking off!". Sketching something on paper, or just thinking on what to do next, was not considered work by him. Needless to say, he was manager for a very short time, soon the whole department went together to upper management and declared that either their manager goes or the whole department resigns right then and there.

    – Val
    17 mins ago














  • 1





    Are these government, government contractors, or otherwise regulated clients? I know the US Government has the right to show up at any contractor's place of work at any time to audit timecards: a friend who worked from home had an auditor show up at his house for an inspection. He had to show the current open entry corresponded to the engineering work he was doing on his screen. This extends to non-government work done by contractors (due to calculation of overhead).

    – user71659
    3 hours ago








  • 2





    It's also counterproductive, because it measures the wrong thing. My first customer paid by the hour, but internally measured lines of code produced. Since my job was to shrink the codebase so their software would fit onto a smaller device, my "productivity" was negative throughout my entire contract.

    – Simon Richter
    1 hour ago













  • "The client thinks I am lazy" did they actually say that? If so, harsh.

    – user87779
    1 hour ago













  • I've been doing software development for 25+ years, much of it as a contractor and have never heard of this. If you don't need to work for them, then don't. Screw that.

    – Phil N DeBlanc
    57 mins ago






  • 1





    I know of a manager of a department of developers and designers, who started tracking productivity by viewing screens remotely, and doing antics like barging into the (open-plan) office and shouting "Hey you there, your mouse didn't move for five minutes, how dare you slacking off!". Sketching something on paper, or just thinking on what to do next, was not considered work by him. Needless to say, he was manager for a very short time, soon the whole department went together to upper management and declared that either their manager goes or the whole department resigns right then and there.

    – Val
    17 mins ago








1




1





Are these government, government contractors, or otherwise regulated clients? I know the US Government has the right to show up at any contractor's place of work at any time to audit timecards: a friend who worked from home had an auditor show up at his house for an inspection. He had to show the current open entry corresponded to the engineering work he was doing on his screen. This extends to non-government work done by contractors (due to calculation of overhead).

– user71659
3 hours ago







Are these government, government contractors, or otherwise regulated clients? I know the US Government has the right to show up at any contractor's place of work at any time to audit timecards: a friend who worked from home had an auditor show up at his house for an inspection. He had to show the current open entry corresponded to the engineering work he was doing on his screen. This extends to non-government work done by contractors (due to calculation of overhead).

– user71659
3 hours ago






2




2





It's also counterproductive, because it measures the wrong thing. My first customer paid by the hour, but internally measured lines of code produced. Since my job was to shrink the codebase so their software would fit onto a smaller device, my "productivity" was negative throughout my entire contract.

– Simon Richter
1 hour ago







It's also counterproductive, because it measures the wrong thing. My first customer paid by the hour, but internally measured lines of code produced. Since my job was to shrink the codebase so their software would fit onto a smaller device, my "productivity" was negative throughout my entire contract.

– Simon Richter
1 hour ago















"The client thinks I am lazy" did they actually say that? If so, harsh.

– user87779
1 hour ago







"The client thinks I am lazy" did they actually say that? If so, harsh.

– user87779
1 hour ago















I've been doing software development for 25+ years, much of it as a contractor and have never heard of this. If you don't need to work for them, then don't. Screw that.

– Phil N DeBlanc
57 mins ago





I've been doing software development for 25+ years, much of it as a contractor and have never heard of this. If you don't need to work for them, then don't. Screw that.

– Phil N DeBlanc
57 mins ago




1




1





I know of a manager of a department of developers and designers, who started tracking productivity by viewing screens remotely, and doing antics like barging into the (open-plan) office and shouting "Hey you there, your mouse didn't move for five minutes, how dare you slacking off!". Sketching something on paper, or just thinking on what to do next, was not considered work by him. Needless to say, he was manager for a very short time, soon the whole department went together to upper management and declared that either their manager goes or the whole department resigns right then and there.

– Val
17 mins ago





I know of a manager of a department of developers and designers, who started tracking productivity by viewing screens remotely, and doing antics like barging into the (open-plan) office and shouting "Hey you there, your mouse didn't move for five minutes, how dare you slacking off!". Sketching something on paper, or just thinking on what to do next, was not considered work by him. Needless to say, he was manager for a very short time, soon the whole department went together to upper management and declared that either their manager goes or the whole department resigns right then and there.

– Val
17 mins ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















51















Is this type of requirement common?




No it isn't. It's also a security issue and a sign of a problematic client. Unless you're desperate for the work I'd just refuse.



The major advantage of freelancing is that you pick your clients, your times and your conditions (these should always be clearly defined and agreed at the outset). If you allow a client to impinge on these you lose part of your advantage and your future negotiating status is lessened.






share|improve this answer





















  • 3





    Agreed. This is uncommon and unusual. I would not take on a client that had this as a requirement.

    – joeqwerty
    5 hours ago






  • 6





    I agree and would even go stronger. They are already signaling that they are going to dispute OP's labor charges. Even if OP is desperate, it is still better to be idle than work for nothing.

    – emory
    4 hours ago






  • 1





    I never understand why people would even want to hire someone they clearly don't trust.

    – Jörg W Mittag
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    @JörgWMittag you get lots of weird stuff freelancing, sometimes it's people trying it on or establishing a pecking order, sometimes it's clients that have had bad experiences and haven't gotten over themselves. No real point trying to analyse the reasons, if you don't like the conditions refuse the job.

    – Kilisi
    2 hours ago











  • It is definitely not uncommon. Upwork mandates it for escrow dispute resolution.

    – Sentinel
    21 mins ago



















14















the risk of exposing another clients work via (2) - software becomes unpatched leaving a giant hole in my system or a screenshot of a chat with another client




This is why I will not use screen-logging software, and I do not know of a single free-lancer who will allow it on their computer.



You likely signed NDAs with your clients. Installing this software likely breaks the NDA



How to (possibly) salvage this situation - Explain The above reason to them, and suggest other ways to build trust with them. Something like




I can't install software like that because you could inadvertently see what I'm working on for other clients. That's a violation of their trust (and possible NDA), so I can't really budge on that. I have several references XYZ if you're worried about work ethic.







share|improve this answer































    13














    Do not let anybody spy on your property and work!



    If you work on the clients premises, using their property and licenses then they have every right to keylog and screencapture.



    But that's not the case!



    I'm afraid you gave them ideas with your too detailed, itemized timesheets.



    Why would you even do that?



    You give an estimate and once you draw up a contract you name a more accurate amount of time and price.



    Once milestones are reached or the job is finished you invoice and bill your tasks / time.



    If it's very different to your estimate you better talked about whatever caused the price hike when it occurred and they better agreed to it.



    If they insist, thank them for considering to work with you but respectfully decline out of security concerns.



    Let me reiterate:



    Do not let anybody spy on your property and work!






    share|improve this answer


























    • with your too detailed itemized timesheets. It would appear I still have a lot to learn.

      – CL40
      6 hours ago








    • 1





      Yeah, I would recommend categorizing your work only at a high level (i.e. research/planning, meetings, front-end, back-end, deployment, etc.) with a total per-category, and rounded to the hour. It's up to you how precisely you track your time internally, but sharing that detail treats your client like your manager and invites them to assume that authority.

      – HonoredMule
      3 hours ago








    • 2





      If you work in a country with decent labor laws, even as a permanent employee, on their property, with their equipment keylogging, screenshotting or filming employees is a crime. It would not even be possible to get consent, if it's not required by the circumstances (for examples tellers in a bank will have to live with the fact that they are on the security tapes).

      – nvoigt
      56 mins ago



















    2














    This is VERY common.
    UpWork requires screenshots for you to have escrow claims. Because of the popularity of UpWork it is safe to say this is a common practice.



    The Upwork client installs a program that takes a screenshot every 10 minutes and checks keyboard/mouse activity over each time slot to determine if you really were at the keyboard and approximately how active you were.



    Personally I found it unpleasant at first but quickly got used to it. The clients rarely check it. It's mainly just that in the event of a dispute, the escrow mechanisms don't work without the paper trail of activity.



    Note: the tracker is optional. If you don't use it then you have little chance of recovering funds as it is required for the escrow dispute resolution process.






    share|improve this answer


























    • Do you mean simply screenshots, or actually installing screenshotting software? (which takes a screenshot automatically every x minutes and automatically sends it out). And what about keylogging software, which was the other suggestion from the clients.

      – user87779
      1 hour ago






    • 1





      @user87779 updating to address

      – Sentinel
      44 mins ago






    • 2





      Deleting my Upwork account now.

      – Dronz
      32 mins ago






    • 1





      @user87779 You don't have to use the tracker features (I think), but if you don't you have no recourse to Upwork escrow dispute resolution in the event the client disputes you did the claimed hours.

      – Sentinel
      23 mins ago






    • 1





      @user87779 OK. A friend of mine who's a long term Upwork user says he doesn't do the fixed budget contracts (no escrow + no tracker) anymore because he got stung too often. A sample set of 1 says little though.

      – Sentinel
      20 mins ago











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    4 Answers
    4






    active

    oldest

    votes








    4 Answers
    4






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    51















    Is this type of requirement common?




    No it isn't. It's also a security issue and a sign of a problematic client. Unless you're desperate for the work I'd just refuse.



    The major advantage of freelancing is that you pick your clients, your times and your conditions (these should always be clearly defined and agreed at the outset). If you allow a client to impinge on these you lose part of your advantage and your future negotiating status is lessened.






    share|improve this answer





















    • 3





      Agreed. This is uncommon and unusual. I would not take on a client that had this as a requirement.

      – joeqwerty
      5 hours ago






    • 6





      I agree and would even go stronger. They are already signaling that they are going to dispute OP's labor charges. Even if OP is desperate, it is still better to be idle than work for nothing.

      – emory
      4 hours ago






    • 1





      I never understand why people would even want to hire someone they clearly don't trust.

      – Jörg W Mittag
      2 hours ago






    • 1





      @JörgWMittag you get lots of weird stuff freelancing, sometimes it's people trying it on or establishing a pecking order, sometimes it's clients that have had bad experiences and haven't gotten over themselves. No real point trying to analyse the reasons, if you don't like the conditions refuse the job.

      – Kilisi
      2 hours ago











    • It is definitely not uncommon. Upwork mandates it for escrow dispute resolution.

      – Sentinel
      21 mins ago
















    51















    Is this type of requirement common?




    No it isn't. It's also a security issue and a sign of a problematic client. Unless you're desperate for the work I'd just refuse.



    The major advantage of freelancing is that you pick your clients, your times and your conditions (these should always be clearly defined and agreed at the outset). If you allow a client to impinge on these you lose part of your advantage and your future negotiating status is lessened.






    share|improve this answer





















    • 3





      Agreed. This is uncommon and unusual. I would not take on a client that had this as a requirement.

      – joeqwerty
      5 hours ago






    • 6





      I agree and would even go stronger. They are already signaling that they are going to dispute OP's labor charges. Even if OP is desperate, it is still better to be idle than work for nothing.

      – emory
      4 hours ago






    • 1





      I never understand why people would even want to hire someone they clearly don't trust.

      – Jörg W Mittag
      2 hours ago






    • 1





      @JörgWMittag you get lots of weird stuff freelancing, sometimes it's people trying it on or establishing a pecking order, sometimes it's clients that have had bad experiences and haven't gotten over themselves. No real point trying to analyse the reasons, if you don't like the conditions refuse the job.

      – Kilisi
      2 hours ago











    • It is definitely not uncommon. Upwork mandates it for escrow dispute resolution.

      – Sentinel
      21 mins ago














    51












    51








    51








    Is this type of requirement common?




    No it isn't. It's also a security issue and a sign of a problematic client. Unless you're desperate for the work I'd just refuse.



    The major advantage of freelancing is that you pick your clients, your times and your conditions (these should always be clearly defined and agreed at the outset). If you allow a client to impinge on these you lose part of your advantage and your future negotiating status is lessened.






    share|improve this answer
















    Is this type of requirement common?




    No it isn't. It's also a security issue and a sign of a problematic client. Unless you're desperate for the work I'd just refuse.



    The major advantage of freelancing is that you pick your clients, your times and your conditions (these should always be clearly defined and agreed at the outset). If you allow a client to impinge on these you lose part of your advantage and your future negotiating status is lessened.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 6 hours ago

























    answered 6 hours ago









    KilisiKilisi

    119k67264457




    119k67264457








    • 3





      Agreed. This is uncommon and unusual. I would not take on a client that had this as a requirement.

      – joeqwerty
      5 hours ago






    • 6





      I agree and would even go stronger. They are already signaling that they are going to dispute OP's labor charges. Even if OP is desperate, it is still better to be idle than work for nothing.

      – emory
      4 hours ago






    • 1





      I never understand why people would even want to hire someone they clearly don't trust.

      – Jörg W Mittag
      2 hours ago






    • 1





      @JörgWMittag you get lots of weird stuff freelancing, sometimes it's people trying it on or establishing a pecking order, sometimes it's clients that have had bad experiences and haven't gotten over themselves. No real point trying to analyse the reasons, if you don't like the conditions refuse the job.

      – Kilisi
      2 hours ago











    • It is definitely not uncommon. Upwork mandates it for escrow dispute resolution.

      – Sentinel
      21 mins ago














    • 3





      Agreed. This is uncommon and unusual. I would not take on a client that had this as a requirement.

      – joeqwerty
      5 hours ago






    • 6





      I agree and would even go stronger. They are already signaling that they are going to dispute OP's labor charges. Even if OP is desperate, it is still better to be idle than work for nothing.

      – emory
      4 hours ago






    • 1





      I never understand why people would even want to hire someone they clearly don't trust.

      – Jörg W Mittag
      2 hours ago






    • 1





      @JörgWMittag you get lots of weird stuff freelancing, sometimes it's people trying it on or establishing a pecking order, sometimes it's clients that have had bad experiences and haven't gotten over themselves. No real point trying to analyse the reasons, if you don't like the conditions refuse the job.

      – Kilisi
      2 hours ago











    • It is definitely not uncommon. Upwork mandates it for escrow dispute resolution.

      – Sentinel
      21 mins ago








    3




    3





    Agreed. This is uncommon and unusual. I would not take on a client that had this as a requirement.

    – joeqwerty
    5 hours ago





    Agreed. This is uncommon and unusual. I would not take on a client that had this as a requirement.

    – joeqwerty
    5 hours ago




    6




    6





    I agree and would even go stronger. They are already signaling that they are going to dispute OP's labor charges. Even if OP is desperate, it is still better to be idle than work for nothing.

    – emory
    4 hours ago





    I agree and would even go stronger. They are already signaling that they are going to dispute OP's labor charges. Even if OP is desperate, it is still better to be idle than work for nothing.

    – emory
    4 hours ago




    1




    1





    I never understand why people would even want to hire someone they clearly don't trust.

    – Jörg W Mittag
    2 hours ago





    I never understand why people would even want to hire someone they clearly don't trust.

    – Jörg W Mittag
    2 hours ago




    1




    1





    @JörgWMittag you get lots of weird stuff freelancing, sometimes it's people trying it on or establishing a pecking order, sometimes it's clients that have had bad experiences and haven't gotten over themselves. No real point trying to analyse the reasons, if you don't like the conditions refuse the job.

    – Kilisi
    2 hours ago





    @JörgWMittag you get lots of weird stuff freelancing, sometimes it's people trying it on or establishing a pecking order, sometimes it's clients that have had bad experiences and haven't gotten over themselves. No real point trying to analyse the reasons, if you don't like the conditions refuse the job.

    – Kilisi
    2 hours ago













    It is definitely not uncommon. Upwork mandates it for escrow dispute resolution.

    – Sentinel
    21 mins ago





    It is definitely not uncommon. Upwork mandates it for escrow dispute resolution.

    – Sentinel
    21 mins ago













    14















    the risk of exposing another clients work via (2) - software becomes unpatched leaving a giant hole in my system or a screenshot of a chat with another client




    This is why I will not use screen-logging software, and I do not know of a single free-lancer who will allow it on their computer.



    You likely signed NDAs with your clients. Installing this software likely breaks the NDA



    How to (possibly) salvage this situation - Explain The above reason to them, and suggest other ways to build trust with them. Something like




    I can't install software like that because you could inadvertently see what I'm working on for other clients. That's a violation of their trust (and possible NDA), so I can't really budge on that. I have several references XYZ if you're worried about work ethic.







    share|improve this answer




























      14















      the risk of exposing another clients work via (2) - software becomes unpatched leaving a giant hole in my system or a screenshot of a chat with another client




      This is why I will not use screen-logging software, and I do not know of a single free-lancer who will allow it on their computer.



      You likely signed NDAs with your clients. Installing this software likely breaks the NDA



      How to (possibly) salvage this situation - Explain The above reason to them, and suggest other ways to build trust with them. Something like




      I can't install software like that because you could inadvertently see what I'm working on for other clients. That's a violation of their trust (and possible NDA), so I can't really budge on that. I have several references XYZ if you're worried about work ethic.







      share|improve this answer


























        14












        14








        14








        the risk of exposing another clients work via (2) - software becomes unpatched leaving a giant hole in my system or a screenshot of a chat with another client




        This is why I will not use screen-logging software, and I do not know of a single free-lancer who will allow it on their computer.



        You likely signed NDAs with your clients. Installing this software likely breaks the NDA



        How to (possibly) salvage this situation - Explain The above reason to them, and suggest other ways to build trust with them. Something like




        I can't install software like that because you could inadvertently see what I'm working on for other clients. That's a violation of their trust (and possible NDA), so I can't really budge on that. I have several references XYZ if you're worried about work ethic.







        share|improve this answer














        the risk of exposing another clients work via (2) - software becomes unpatched leaving a giant hole in my system or a screenshot of a chat with another client




        This is why I will not use screen-logging software, and I do not know of a single free-lancer who will allow it on their computer.



        You likely signed NDAs with your clients. Installing this software likely breaks the NDA



        How to (possibly) salvage this situation - Explain The above reason to them, and suggest other ways to build trust with them. Something like




        I can't install software like that because you could inadvertently see what I'm working on for other clients. That's a violation of their trust (and possible NDA), so I can't really budge on that. I have several references XYZ if you're worried about work ethic.








        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 6 hours ago









        sevensevenssevensevens

        11.1k32641




        11.1k32641























            13














            Do not let anybody spy on your property and work!



            If you work on the clients premises, using their property and licenses then they have every right to keylog and screencapture.



            But that's not the case!



            I'm afraid you gave them ideas with your too detailed, itemized timesheets.



            Why would you even do that?



            You give an estimate and once you draw up a contract you name a more accurate amount of time and price.



            Once milestones are reached or the job is finished you invoice and bill your tasks / time.



            If it's very different to your estimate you better talked about whatever caused the price hike when it occurred and they better agreed to it.



            If they insist, thank them for considering to work with you but respectfully decline out of security concerns.



            Let me reiterate:



            Do not let anybody spy on your property and work!






            share|improve this answer


























            • with your too detailed itemized timesheets. It would appear I still have a lot to learn.

              – CL40
              6 hours ago








            • 1





              Yeah, I would recommend categorizing your work only at a high level (i.e. research/planning, meetings, front-end, back-end, deployment, etc.) with a total per-category, and rounded to the hour. It's up to you how precisely you track your time internally, but sharing that detail treats your client like your manager and invites them to assume that authority.

              – HonoredMule
              3 hours ago








            • 2





              If you work in a country with decent labor laws, even as a permanent employee, on their property, with their equipment keylogging, screenshotting or filming employees is a crime. It would not even be possible to get consent, if it's not required by the circumstances (for examples tellers in a bank will have to live with the fact that they are on the security tapes).

              – nvoigt
              56 mins ago
















            13














            Do not let anybody spy on your property and work!



            If you work on the clients premises, using their property and licenses then they have every right to keylog and screencapture.



            But that's not the case!



            I'm afraid you gave them ideas with your too detailed, itemized timesheets.



            Why would you even do that?



            You give an estimate and once you draw up a contract you name a more accurate amount of time and price.



            Once milestones are reached or the job is finished you invoice and bill your tasks / time.



            If it's very different to your estimate you better talked about whatever caused the price hike when it occurred and they better agreed to it.



            If they insist, thank them for considering to work with you but respectfully decline out of security concerns.



            Let me reiterate:



            Do not let anybody spy on your property and work!






            share|improve this answer


























            • with your too detailed itemized timesheets. It would appear I still have a lot to learn.

              – CL40
              6 hours ago








            • 1





              Yeah, I would recommend categorizing your work only at a high level (i.e. research/planning, meetings, front-end, back-end, deployment, etc.) with a total per-category, and rounded to the hour. It's up to you how precisely you track your time internally, but sharing that detail treats your client like your manager and invites them to assume that authority.

              – HonoredMule
              3 hours ago








            • 2





              If you work in a country with decent labor laws, even as a permanent employee, on their property, with their equipment keylogging, screenshotting or filming employees is a crime. It would not even be possible to get consent, if it's not required by the circumstances (for examples tellers in a bank will have to live with the fact that they are on the security tapes).

              – nvoigt
              56 mins ago














            13












            13








            13







            Do not let anybody spy on your property and work!



            If you work on the clients premises, using their property and licenses then they have every right to keylog and screencapture.



            But that's not the case!



            I'm afraid you gave them ideas with your too detailed, itemized timesheets.



            Why would you even do that?



            You give an estimate and once you draw up a contract you name a more accurate amount of time and price.



            Once milestones are reached or the job is finished you invoice and bill your tasks / time.



            If it's very different to your estimate you better talked about whatever caused the price hike when it occurred and they better agreed to it.



            If they insist, thank them for considering to work with you but respectfully decline out of security concerns.



            Let me reiterate:



            Do not let anybody spy on your property and work!






            share|improve this answer















            Do not let anybody spy on your property and work!



            If you work on the clients premises, using their property and licenses then they have every right to keylog and screencapture.



            But that's not the case!



            I'm afraid you gave them ideas with your too detailed, itemized timesheets.



            Why would you even do that?



            You give an estimate and once you draw up a contract you name a more accurate amount of time and price.



            Once milestones are reached or the job is finished you invoice and bill your tasks / time.



            If it's very different to your estimate you better talked about whatever caused the price hike when it occurred and they better agreed to it.



            If they insist, thank them for considering to work with you but respectfully decline out of security concerns.



            Let me reiterate:



            Do not let anybody spy on your property and work!







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 2 mins ago









            V2Blast

            25859




            25859










            answered 6 hours ago









            DigitalBlade969DigitalBlade969

            7,3091727




            7,3091727













            • with your too detailed itemized timesheets. It would appear I still have a lot to learn.

              – CL40
              6 hours ago








            • 1





              Yeah, I would recommend categorizing your work only at a high level (i.e. research/planning, meetings, front-end, back-end, deployment, etc.) with a total per-category, and rounded to the hour. It's up to you how precisely you track your time internally, but sharing that detail treats your client like your manager and invites them to assume that authority.

              – HonoredMule
              3 hours ago








            • 2





              If you work in a country with decent labor laws, even as a permanent employee, on their property, with their equipment keylogging, screenshotting or filming employees is a crime. It would not even be possible to get consent, if it's not required by the circumstances (for examples tellers in a bank will have to live with the fact that they are on the security tapes).

              – nvoigt
              56 mins ago



















            • with your too detailed itemized timesheets. It would appear I still have a lot to learn.

              – CL40
              6 hours ago








            • 1





              Yeah, I would recommend categorizing your work only at a high level (i.e. research/planning, meetings, front-end, back-end, deployment, etc.) with a total per-category, and rounded to the hour. It's up to you how precisely you track your time internally, but sharing that detail treats your client like your manager and invites them to assume that authority.

              – HonoredMule
              3 hours ago








            • 2





              If you work in a country with decent labor laws, even as a permanent employee, on their property, with their equipment keylogging, screenshotting or filming employees is a crime. It would not even be possible to get consent, if it's not required by the circumstances (for examples tellers in a bank will have to live with the fact that they are on the security tapes).

              – nvoigt
              56 mins ago

















            with your too detailed itemized timesheets. It would appear I still have a lot to learn.

            – CL40
            6 hours ago







            with your too detailed itemized timesheets. It would appear I still have a lot to learn.

            – CL40
            6 hours ago






            1




            1





            Yeah, I would recommend categorizing your work only at a high level (i.e. research/planning, meetings, front-end, back-end, deployment, etc.) with a total per-category, and rounded to the hour. It's up to you how precisely you track your time internally, but sharing that detail treats your client like your manager and invites them to assume that authority.

            – HonoredMule
            3 hours ago







            Yeah, I would recommend categorizing your work only at a high level (i.e. research/planning, meetings, front-end, back-end, deployment, etc.) with a total per-category, and rounded to the hour. It's up to you how precisely you track your time internally, but sharing that detail treats your client like your manager and invites them to assume that authority.

            – HonoredMule
            3 hours ago






            2




            2





            If you work in a country with decent labor laws, even as a permanent employee, on their property, with their equipment keylogging, screenshotting or filming employees is a crime. It would not even be possible to get consent, if it's not required by the circumstances (for examples tellers in a bank will have to live with the fact that they are on the security tapes).

            – nvoigt
            56 mins ago





            If you work in a country with decent labor laws, even as a permanent employee, on their property, with their equipment keylogging, screenshotting or filming employees is a crime. It would not even be possible to get consent, if it's not required by the circumstances (for examples tellers in a bank will have to live with the fact that they are on the security tapes).

            – nvoigt
            56 mins ago











            2














            This is VERY common.
            UpWork requires screenshots for you to have escrow claims. Because of the popularity of UpWork it is safe to say this is a common practice.



            The Upwork client installs a program that takes a screenshot every 10 minutes and checks keyboard/mouse activity over each time slot to determine if you really were at the keyboard and approximately how active you were.



            Personally I found it unpleasant at first but quickly got used to it. The clients rarely check it. It's mainly just that in the event of a dispute, the escrow mechanisms don't work without the paper trail of activity.



            Note: the tracker is optional. If you don't use it then you have little chance of recovering funds as it is required for the escrow dispute resolution process.






            share|improve this answer


























            • Do you mean simply screenshots, or actually installing screenshotting software? (which takes a screenshot automatically every x minutes and automatically sends it out). And what about keylogging software, which was the other suggestion from the clients.

              – user87779
              1 hour ago






            • 1





              @user87779 updating to address

              – Sentinel
              44 mins ago






            • 2





              Deleting my Upwork account now.

              – Dronz
              32 mins ago






            • 1





              @user87779 You don't have to use the tracker features (I think), but if you don't you have no recourse to Upwork escrow dispute resolution in the event the client disputes you did the claimed hours.

              – Sentinel
              23 mins ago






            • 1





              @user87779 OK. A friend of mine who's a long term Upwork user says he doesn't do the fixed budget contracts (no escrow + no tracker) anymore because he got stung too often. A sample set of 1 says little though.

              – Sentinel
              20 mins ago
















            2














            This is VERY common.
            UpWork requires screenshots for you to have escrow claims. Because of the popularity of UpWork it is safe to say this is a common practice.



            The Upwork client installs a program that takes a screenshot every 10 minutes and checks keyboard/mouse activity over each time slot to determine if you really were at the keyboard and approximately how active you were.



            Personally I found it unpleasant at first but quickly got used to it. The clients rarely check it. It's mainly just that in the event of a dispute, the escrow mechanisms don't work without the paper trail of activity.



            Note: the tracker is optional. If you don't use it then you have little chance of recovering funds as it is required for the escrow dispute resolution process.






            share|improve this answer


























            • Do you mean simply screenshots, or actually installing screenshotting software? (which takes a screenshot automatically every x minutes and automatically sends it out). And what about keylogging software, which was the other suggestion from the clients.

              – user87779
              1 hour ago






            • 1





              @user87779 updating to address

              – Sentinel
              44 mins ago






            • 2





              Deleting my Upwork account now.

              – Dronz
              32 mins ago






            • 1





              @user87779 You don't have to use the tracker features (I think), but if you don't you have no recourse to Upwork escrow dispute resolution in the event the client disputes you did the claimed hours.

              – Sentinel
              23 mins ago






            • 1





              @user87779 OK. A friend of mine who's a long term Upwork user says he doesn't do the fixed budget contracts (no escrow + no tracker) anymore because he got stung too often. A sample set of 1 says little though.

              – Sentinel
              20 mins ago














            2












            2








            2







            This is VERY common.
            UpWork requires screenshots for you to have escrow claims. Because of the popularity of UpWork it is safe to say this is a common practice.



            The Upwork client installs a program that takes a screenshot every 10 minutes and checks keyboard/mouse activity over each time slot to determine if you really were at the keyboard and approximately how active you were.



            Personally I found it unpleasant at first but quickly got used to it. The clients rarely check it. It's mainly just that in the event of a dispute, the escrow mechanisms don't work without the paper trail of activity.



            Note: the tracker is optional. If you don't use it then you have little chance of recovering funds as it is required for the escrow dispute resolution process.






            share|improve this answer















            This is VERY common.
            UpWork requires screenshots for you to have escrow claims. Because of the popularity of UpWork it is safe to say this is a common practice.



            The Upwork client installs a program that takes a screenshot every 10 minutes and checks keyboard/mouse activity over each time slot to determine if you really were at the keyboard and approximately how active you were.



            Personally I found it unpleasant at first but quickly got used to it. The clients rarely check it. It's mainly just that in the event of a dispute, the escrow mechanisms don't work without the paper trail of activity.



            Note: the tracker is optional. If you don't use it then you have little chance of recovering funds as it is required for the escrow dispute resolution process.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 22 mins ago

























            answered 1 hour ago









            SentinelSentinel

            1,6992515




            1,6992515













            • Do you mean simply screenshots, or actually installing screenshotting software? (which takes a screenshot automatically every x minutes and automatically sends it out). And what about keylogging software, which was the other suggestion from the clients.

              – user87779
              1 hour ago






            • 1





              @user87779 updating to address

              – Sentinel
              44 mins ago






            • 2





              Deleting my Upwork account now.

              – Dronz
              32 mins ago






            • 1





              @user87779 You don't have to use the tracker features (I think), but if you don't you have no recourse to Upwork escrow dispute resolution in the event the client disputes you did the claimed hours.

              – Sentinel
              23 mins ago






            • 1





              @user87779 OK. A friend of mine who's a long term Upwork user says he doesn't do the fixed budget contracts (no escrow + no tracker) anymore because he got stung too often. A sample set of 1 says little though.

              – Sentinel
              20 mins ago



















            • Do you mean simply screenshots, or actually installing screenshotting software? (which takes a screenshot automatically every x minutes and automatically sends it out). And what about keylogging software, which was the other suggestion from the clients.

              – user87779
              1 hour ago






            • 1





              @user87779 updating to address

              – Sentinel
              44 mins ago






            • 2





              Deleting my Upwork account now.

              – Dronz
              32 mins ago






            • 1





              @user87779 You don't have to use the tracker features (I think), but if you don't you have no recourse to Upwork escrow dispute resolution in the event the client disputes you did the claimed hours.

              – Sentinel
              23 mins ago






            • 1





              @user87779 OK. A friend of mine who's a long term Upwork user says he doesn't do the fixed budget contracts (no escrow + no tracker) anymore because he got stung too often. A sample set of 1 says little though.

              – Sentinel
              20 mins ago

















            Do you mean simply screenshots, or actually installing screenshotting software? (which takes a screenshot automatically every x minutes and automatically sends it out). And what about keylogging software, which was the other suggestion from the clients.

            – user87779
            1 hour ago





            Do you mean simply screenshots, or actually installing screenshotting software? (which takes a screenshot automatically every x minutes and automatically sends it out). And what about keylogging software, which was the other suggestion from the clients.

            – user87779
            1 hour ago




            1




            1





            @user87779 updating to address

            – Sentinel
            44 mins ago





            @user87779 updating to address

            – Sentinel
            44 mins ago




            2




            2





            Deleting my Upwork account now.

            – Dronz
            32 mins ago





            Deleting my Upwork account now.

            – Dronz
            32 mins ago




            1




            1





            @user87779 You don't have to use the tracker features (I think), but if you don't you have no recourse to Upwork escrow dispute resolution in the event the client disputes you did the claimed hours.

            – Sentinel
            23 mins ago





            @user87779 You don't have to use the tracker features (I think), but if you don't you have no recourse to Upwork escrow dispute resolution in the event the client disputes you did the claimed hours.

            – Sentinel
            23 mins ago




            1




            1





            @user87779 OK. A friend of mine who's a long term Upwork user says he doesn't do the fixed budget contracts (no escrow + no tracker) anymore because he got stung too often. A sample set of 1 says little though.

            – Sentinel
            20 mins ago





            @user87779 OK. A friend of mine who's a long term Upwork user says he doesn't do the fixed budget contracts (no escrow + no tracker) anymore because he got stung too often. A sample set of 1 says little though.

            – Sentinel
            20 mins ago










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