Does mean centering reduce covariance?












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Assuming I have two non-independent random variables and I want to reduce covariance between them as much as possible without loosing too much "signal", does mean centering help? I read somewhere that mean centering reduces correlation by a significant factor, so I'm thinking it should do the same for covariance.










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    10












    $begingroup$


    Assuming I have two non-independent random variables and I want to reduce covariance between them as much as possible without loosing too much "signal", does mean centering help? I read somewhere that mean centering reduces correlation by a significant factor, so I'm thinking it should do the same for covariance.










    share|cite|improve this question











    $endgroup$















      10












      10








      10


      2



      $begingroup$


      Assuming I have two non-independent random variables and I want to reduce covariance between them as much as possible without loosing too much "signal", does mean centering help? I read somewhere that mean centering reduces correlation by a significant factor, so I'm thinking it should do the same for covariance.










      share|cite|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      Assuming I have two non-independent random variables and I want to reduce covariance between them as much as possible without loosing too much "signal", does mean centering help? I read somewhere that mean centering reduces correlation by a significant factor, so I'm thinking it should do the same for covariance.







      correlation covariance random-vector






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      edited 9 hours ago









      opa

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      asked 23 hours ago









      lvdplvdp

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          3 Answers
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          24












          $begingroup$

          If $X$ and $Y$ are random variables and $a$ and $b$ are constants, then
          $$
          begin{aligned}
          operatorname{Cov}(X + a, Y + b)
          &= E[(X + a - E[X + a])(Y + b - E[Y + b])] \
          &= E[(X + a - E[X] - E[a])(Y + b - E[Y] - E[b])] \
          &= E[(X + a - E[X] - a)(Y + b - E[Y] - b)] \
          &= E[(X - E[X])(Y - E[Y])] \
          &= operatorname{Cov}(X, Y).
          end{aligned}
          $$

          Centering is the special case $a = -E[X]$ and $b = -E[Y]$, so centering does not affect covariance.





          Also, since correlation is defined as
          $$
          operatorname{Corr}(X, Y)
          = frac{operatorname{Cov}(X, Y)}{sqrt{operatorname{Var}(X) operatorname{Var}(Y)}},
          $$

          we can see that
          $$
          begin{aligned}
          operatorname{Corr}(X + a, Y + b)
          &= frac{operatorname{Cov}(X + a, Y + b)}{sqrt{operatorname{Var}(X + a) operatorname{Var}(Y + b)}} \
          &= frac{operatorname{Cov}(X, Y)}{sqrt{operatorname{Var}(X) operatorname{Var}(Y)}},
          end{aligned}
          $$

          so in particular, correlation isn't affected by centering either.





          That was the population version of the story. The sample version is the same: If we use
          $$
          widehat{operatorname{Cov}}(X, Y)
          = frac{1}{n} sum_{i=1}^n left(X_i - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n X_jright)left(Y_i - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n Y_jright)
          $$

          as our estimate of covariance between $X$ and $Y$ from a paired sample $(X_1,Y_1), ldots, (X_n,Y_n)$, then
          $$
          begin{aligned}
          widehat{operatorname{Cov}}(X + a, Y + b)
          &= frac{1}{n} sum_{i=1}^n left(X_i + a - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n (X_j + a)right)left(Y_i + b - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n (Y_j + b)right) \
          &= frac{1}{n} sum_{i=1}^n left(X_i + a - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n X_j - frac{n}{n} aright)left(Y_i + b - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n Y_j - frac{n}{n} bright) \
          &= frac{1}{n} sum_{i=1}^n left(X_i - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n X_jright)left(Y_i - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n Y_jright) \
          &= widehat{operatorname{Cov}}(X, Y)
          end{aligned}
          $$

          for any $a$ and $b$.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            thanks for the detailed answer. Does it mean that for sample covariance the sample size doesn't have any impact either? i.e. reducing the sample size does not reduce the sample covariance?
            $endgroup$
            – lvdp
            21 hours ago








          • 3




            $begingroup$
            @lvdp That should probably be a separate question.
            $endgroup$
            – Acccumulation
            10 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            A reduced sample size can only come with a different sample. A different sample could show different covariance, therefore. But as sample covariance is defined as an average, sample size is scaled for in principle.
            $endgroup$
            – Nick Cox
            9 hours ago



















          3












          $begingroup$

          The definition of the covariance of $X$ and $Y$ is $E[(X-E[X])(Y-E[Y])]$. The expression $X-E[X]$ in that formula is the centered version of $X$. So we already center $X$ when we take the covariance, and centering is an idempotent operator; once a variable is centered, applying the centering process further times doesn't change it. If the formula didn't take the centered versions of the variables, then there would all sort of weird effects, such as the covariance between temperature and another variable being different depending on whether we measure temperature in Celsius or Kelvin.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$





















            2












            $begingroup$

            "somewhere" tends to be a rather unreliable source...



            Covariance/correlation are defined with explicit centering. If you don't center the data, then you are not computing covariance/correlation. (Precisely: Pearson correlation)



            The main difference is whether you center based on a theoretical model (e.g., the expected value is supposed to be exactly 0) or based on the data (arithmetic mean). It is easy to see that the arithmetic mean will yield smaller Covariance than any different center.



            However, smaller covariance does not imply smaller correlation, or the opposite. Assume that we have data X=(1,2) and Y=(2,1). It is easy to see that with arithmetic mean centering this will yield perfectly negative correlation, while if we know the generating process produces 0 on average, the data is actually positively correlated.
            So in this example, we are centering - but with the theoretical expected value of 0.



            This can arise easily. Consider we have a sensor array, 11x11, with the cells numbered -5 to +5. Rather than taking the arithmetic mean, it does make sense to use the "physical" mean of our sensor array here when looking for the correlation of sensor events (if we enumerated the cells 0 to 10, we'd use 5 as fixed mean, and we would get the exact same results, so that indexing choice disappears from the analysis - nice).






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              Thanks @Anony-Mousse, will the sample covariance depend on the sample size? I.e. smaller sample size will yield smaller covariance ( before centering).
              $endgroup$
              – lvdp
              12 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              Depends on the sample obviously. On average - I don't know. I'd expect smaller samples to have more variability mostly, so maybe more often more extreme values. But that is just an intuition.
              $endgroup$
              – Anony-Mousse
              1 hour ago











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            3 Answers
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            24












            $begingroup$

            If $X$ and $Y$ are random variables and $a$ and $b$ are constants, then
            $$
            begin{aligned}
            operatorname{Cov}(X + a, Y + b)
            &= E[(X + a - E[X + a])(Y + b - E[Y + b])] \
            &= E[(X + a - E[X] - E[a])(Y + b - E[Y] - E[b])] \
            &= E[(X + a - E[X] - a)(Y + b - E[Y] - b)] \
            &= E[(X - E[X])(Y - E[Y])] \
            &= operatorname{Cov}(X, Y).
            end{aligned}
            $$

            Centering is the special case $a = -E[X]$ and $b = -E[Y]$, so centering does not affect covariance.





            Also, since correlation is defined as
            $$
            operatorname{Corr}(X, Y)
            = frac{operatorname{Cov}(X, Y)}{sqrt{operatorname{Var}(X) operatorname{Var}(Y)}},
            $$

            we can see that
            $$
            begin{aligned}
            operatorname{Corr}(X + a, Y + b)
            &= frac{operatorname{Cov}(X + a, Y + b)}{sqrt{operatorname{Var}(X + a) operatorname{Var}(Y + b)}} \
            &= frac{operatorname{Cov}(X, Y)}{sqrt{operatorname{Var}(X) operatorname{Var}(Y)}},
            end{aligned}
            $$

            so in particular, correlation isn't affected by centering either.





            That was the population version of the story. The sample version is the same: If we use
            $$
            widehat{operatorname{Cov}}(X, Y)
            = frac{1}{n} sum_{i=1}^n left(X_i - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n X_jright)left(Y_i - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n Y_jright)
            $$

            as our estimate of covariance between $X$ and $Y$ from a paired sample $(X_1,Y_1), ldots, (X_n,Y_n)$, then
            $$
            begin{aligned}
            widehat{operatorname{Cov}}(X + a, Y + b)
            &= frac{1}{n} sum_{i=1}^n left(X_i + a - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n (X_j + a)right)left(Y_i + b - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n (Y_j + b)right) \
            &= frac{1}{n} sum_{i=1}^n left(X_i + a - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n X_j - frac{n}{n} aright)left(Y_i + b - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n Y_j - frac{n}{n} bright) \
            &= frac{1}{n} sum_{i=1}^n left(X_i - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n X_jright)left(Y_i - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n Y_jright) \
            &= widehat{operatorname{Cov}}(X, Y)
            end{aligned}
            $$

            for any $a$ and $b$.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              thanks for the detailed answer. Does it mean that for sample covariance the sample size doesn't have any impact either? i.e. reducing the sample size does not reduce the sample covariance?
              $endgroup$
              – lvdp
              21 hours ago








            • 3




              $begingroup$
              @lvdp That should probably be a separate question.
              $endgroup$
              – Acccumulation
              10 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              A reduced sample size can only come with a different sample. A different sample could show different covariance, therefore. But as sample covariance is defined as an average, sample size is scaled for in principle.
              $endgroup$
              – Nick Cox
              9 hours ago
















            24












            $begingroup$

            If $X$ and $Y$ are random variables and $a$ and $b$ are constants, then
            $$
            begin{aligned}
            operatorname{Cov}(X + a, Y + b)
            &= E[(X + a - E[X + a])(Y + b - E[Y + b])] \
            &= E[(X + a - E[X] - E[a])(Y + b - E[Y] - E[b])] \
            &= E[(X + a - E[X] - a)(Y + b - E[Y] - b)] \
            &= E[(X - E[X])(Y - E[Y])] \
            &= operatorname{Cov}(X, Y).
            end{aligned}
            $$

            Centering is the special case $a = -E[X]$ and $b = -E[Y]$, so centering does not affect covariance.





            Also, since correlation is defined as
            $$
            operatorname{Corr}(X, Y)
            = frac{operatorname{Cov}(X, Y)}{sqrt{operatorname{Var}(X) operatorname{Var}(Y)}},
            $$

            we can see that
            $$
            begin{aligned}
            operatorname{Corr}(X + a, Y + b)
            &= frac{operatorname{Cov}(X + a, Y + b)}{sqrt{operatorname{Var}(X + a) operatorname{Var}(Y + b)}} \
            &= frac{operatorname{Cov}(X, Y)}{sqrt{operatorname{Var}(X) operatorname{Var}(Y)}},
            end{aligned}
            $$

            so in particular, correlation isn't affected by centering either.





            That was the population version of the story. The sample version is the same: If we use
            $$
            widehat{operatorname{Cov}}(X, Y)
            = frac{1}{n} sum_{i=1}^n left(X_i - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n X_jright)left(Y_i - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n Y_jright)
            $$

            as our estimate of covariance between $X$ and $Y$ from a paired sample $(X_1,Y_1), ldots, (X_n,Y_n)$, then
            $$
            begin{aligned}
            widehat{operatorname{Cov}}(X + a, Y + b)
            &= frac{1}{n} sum_{i=1}^n left(X_i + a - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n (X_j + a)right)left(Y_i + b - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n (Y_j + b)right) \
            &= frac{1}{n} sum_{i=1}^n left(X_i + a - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n X_j - frac{n}{n} aright)left(Y_i + b - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n Y_j - frac{n}{n} bright) \
            &= frac{1}{n} sum_{i=1}^n left(X_i - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n X_jright)left(Y_i - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n Y_jright) \
            &= widehat{operatorname{Cov}}(X, Y)
            end{aligned}
            $$

            for any $a$ and $b$.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              thanks for the detailed answer. Does it mean that for sample covariance the sample size doesn't have any impact either? i.e. reducing the sample size does not reduce the sample covariance?
              $endgroup$
              – lvdp
              21 hours ago








            • 3




              $begingroup$
              @lvdp That should probably be a separate question.
              $endgroup$
              – Acccumulation
              10 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              A reduced sample size can only come with a different sample. A different sample could show different covariance, therefore. But as sample covariance is defined as an average, sample size is scaled for in principle.
              $endgroup$
              – Nick Cox
              9 hours ago














            24












            24








            24





            $begingroup$

            If $X$ and $Y$ are random variables and $a$ and $b$ are constants, then
            $$
            begin{aligned}
            operatorname{Cov}(X + a, Y + b)
            &= E[(X + a - E[X + a])(Y + b - E[Y + b])] \
            &= E[(X + a - E[X] - E[a])(Y + b - E[Y] - E[b])] \
            &= E[(X + a - E[X] - a)(Y + b - E[Y] - b)] \
            &= E[(X - E[X])(Y - E[Y])] \
            &= operatorname{Cov}(X, Y).
            end{aligned}
            $$

            Centering is the special case $a = -E[X]$ and $b = -E[Y]$, so centering does not affect covariance.





            Also, since correlation is defined as
            $$
            operatorname{Corr}(X, Y)
            = frac{operatorname{Cov}(X, Y)}{sqrt{operatorname{Var}(X) operatorname{Var}(Y)}},
            $$

            we can see that
            $$
            begin{aligned}
            operatorname{Corr}(X + a, Y + b)
            &= frac{operatorname{Cov}(X + a, Y + b)}{sqrt{operatorname{Var}(X + a) operatorname{Var}(Y + b)}} \
            &= frac{operatorname{Cov}(X, Y)}{sqrt{operatorname{Var}(X) operatorname{Var}(Y)}},
            end{aligned}
            $$

            so in particular, correlation isn't affected by centering either.





            That was the population version of the story. The sample version is the same: If we use
            $$
            widehat{operatorname{Cov}}(X, Y)
            = frac{1}{n} sum_{i=1}^n left(X_i - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n X_jright)left(Y_i - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n Y_jright)
            $$

            as our estimate of covariance between $X$ and $Y$ from a paired sample $(X_1,Y_1), ldots, (X_n,Y_n)$, then
            $$
            begin{aligned}
            widehat{operatorname{Cov}}(X + a, Y + b)
            &= frac{1}{n} sum_{i=1}^n left(X_i + a - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n (X_j + a)right)left(Y_i + b - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n (Y_j + b)right) \
            &= frac{1}{n} sum_{i=1}^n left(X_i + a - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n X_j - frac{n}{n} aright)left(Y_i + b - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n Y_j - frac{n}{n} bright) \
            &= frac{1}{n} sum_{i=1}^n left(X_i - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n X_jright)left(Y_i - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n Y_jright) \
            &= widehat{operatorname{Cov}}(X, Y)
            end{aligned}
            $$

            for any $a$ and $b$.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            If $X$ and $Y$ are random variables and $a$ and $b$ are constants, then
            $$
            begin{aligned}
            operatorname{Cov}(X + a, Y + b)
            &= E[(X + a - E[X + a])(Y + b - E[Y + b])] \
            &= E[(X + a - E[X] - E[a])(Y + b - E[Y] - E[b])] \
            &= E[(X + a - E[X] - a)(Y + b - E[Y] - b)] \
            &= E[(X - E[X])(Y - E[Y])] \
            &= operatorname{Cov}(X, Y).
            end{aligned}
            $$

            Centering is the special case $a = -E[X]$ and $b = -E[Y]$, so centering does not affect covariance.





            Also, since correlation is defined as
            $$
            operatorname{Corr}(X, Y)
            = frac{operatorname{Cov}(X, Y)}{sqrt{operatorname{Var}(X) operatorname{Var}(Y)}},
            $$

            we can see that
            $$
            begin{aligned}
            operatorname{Corr}(X + a, Y + b)
            &= frac{operatorname{Cov}(X + a, Y + b)}{sqrt{operatorname{Var}(X + a) operatorname{Var}(Y + b)}} \
            &= frac{operatorname{Cov}(X, Y)}{sqrt{operatorname{Var}(X) operatorname{Var}(Y)}},
            end{aligned}
            $$

            so in particular, correlation isn't affected by centering either.





            That was the population version of the story. The sample version is the same: If we use
            $$
            widehat{operatorname{Cov}}(X, Y)
            = frac{1}{n} sum_{i=1}^n left(X_i - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n X_jright)left(Y_i - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n Y_jright)
            $$

            as our estimate of covariance between $X$ and $Y$ from a paired sample $(X_1,Y_1), ldots, (X_n,Y_n)$, then
            $$
            begin{aligned}
            widehat{operatorname{Cov}}(X + a, Y + b)
            &= frac{1}{n} sum_{i=1}^n left(X_i + a - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n (X_j + a)right)left(Y_i + b - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n (Y_j + b)right) \
            &= frac{1}{n} sum_{i=1}^n left(X_i + a - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n X_j - frac{n}{n} aright)left(Y_i + b - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n Y_j - frac{n}{n} bright) \
            &= frac{1}{n} sum_{i=1}^n left(X_i - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n X_jright)left(Y_i - frac{1}{n}sum_{j=1}^n Y_jright) \
            &= widehat{operatorname{Cov}}(X, Y)
            end{aligned}
            $$

            for any $a$ and $b$.







            share|cite|improve this answer














            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer








            edited 9 hours ago

























            answered 22 hours ago









            Artem MavrinArtem Mavrin

            55148




            55148












            • $begingroup$
              thanks for the detailed answer. Does it mean that for sample covariance the sample size doesn't have any impact either? i.e. reducing the sample size does not reduce the sample covariance?
              $endgroup$
              – lvdp
              21 hours ago








            • 3




              $begingroup$
              @lvdp That should probably be a separate question.
              $endgroup$
              – Acccumulation
              10 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              A reduced sample size can only come with a different sample. A different sample could show different covariance, therefore. But as sample covariance is defined as an average, sample size is scaled for in principle.
              $endgroup$
              – Nick Cox
              9 hours ago


















            • $begingroup$
              thanks for the detailed answer. Does it mean that for sample covariance the sample size doesn't have any impact either? i.e. reducing the sample size does not reduce the sample covariance?
              $endgroup$
              – lvdp
              21 hours ago








            • 3




              $begingroup$
              @lvdp That should probably be a separate question.
              $endgroup$
              – Acccumulation
              10 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              A reduced sample size can only come with a different sample. A different sample could show different covariance, therefore. But as sample covariance is defined as an average, sample size is scaled for in principle.
              $endgroup$
              – Nick Cox
              9 hours ago
















            $begingroup$
            thanks for the detailed answer. Does it mean that for sample covariance the sample size doesn't have any impact either? i.e. reducing the sample size does not reduce the sample covariance?
            $endgroup$
            – lvdp
            21 hours ago






            $begingroup$
            thanks for the detailed answer. Does it mean that for sample covariance the sample size doesn't have any impact either? i.e. reducing the sample size does not reduce the sample covariance?
            $endgroup$
            – lvdp
            21 hours ago






            3




            3




            $begingroup$
            @lvdp That should probably be a separate question.
            $endgroup$
            – Acccumulation
            10 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            @lvdp That should probably be a separate question.
            $endgroup$
            – Acccumulation
            10 hours ago












            $begingroup$
            A reduced sample size can only come with a different sample. A different sample could show different covariance, therefore. But as sample covariance is defined as an average, sample size is scaled for in principle.
            $endgroup$
            – Nick Cox
            9 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            A reduced sample size can only come with a different sample. A different sample could show different covariance, therefore. But as sample covariance is defined as an average, sample size is scaled for in principle.
            $endgroup$
            – Nick Cox
            9 hours ago













            3












            $begingroup$

            The definition of the covariance of $X$ and $Y$ is $E[(X-E[X])(Y-E[Y])]$. The expression $X-E[X]$ in that formula is the centered version of $X$. So we already center $X$ when we take the covariance, and centering is an idempotent operator; once a variable is centered, applying the centering process further times doesn't change it. If the formula didn't take the centered versions of the variables, then there would all sort of weird effects, such as the covariance between temperature and another variable being different depending on whether we measure temperature in Celsius or Kelvin.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$


















              3












              $begingroup$

              The definition of the covariance of $X$ and $Y$ is $E[(X-E[X])(Y-E[Y])]$. The expression $X-E[X]$ in that formula is the centered version of $X$. So we already center $X$ when we take the covariance, and centering is an idempotent operator; once a variable is centered, applying the centering process further times doesn't change it. If the formula didn't take the centered versions of the variables, then there would all sort of weird effects, such as the covariance between temperature and another variable being different depending on whether we measure temperature in Celsius or Kelvin.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$
















                3












                3








                3





                $begingroup$

                The definition of the covariance of $X$ and $Y$ is $E[(X-E[X])(Y-E[Y])]$. The expression $X-E[X]$ in that formula is the centered version of $X$. So we already center $X$ when we take the covariance, and centering is an idempotent operator; once a variable is centered, applying the centering process further times doesn't change it. If the formula didn't take the centered versions of the variables, then there would all sort of weird effects, such as the covariance between temperature and another variable being different depending on whether we measure temperature in Celsius or Kelvin.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$



                The definition of the covariance of $X$ and $Y$ is $E[(X-E[X])(Y-E[Y])]$. The expression $X-E[X]$ in that formula is the centered version of $X$. So we already center $X$ when we take the covariance, and centering is an idempotent operator; once a variable is centered, applying the centering process further times doesn't change it. If the formula didn't take the centered versions of the variables, then there would all sort of weird effects, such as the covariance between temperature and another variable being different depending on whether we measure temperature in Celsius or Kelvin.







                share|cite|improve this answer












                share|cite|improve this answer



                share|cite|improve this answer










                answered 10 hours ago









                AcccumulationAcccumulation

                1,60626




                1,60626























                    2












                    $begingroup$

                    "somewhere" tends to be a rather unreliable source...



                    Covariance/correlation are defined with explicit centering. If you don't center the data, then you are not computing covariance/correlation. (Precisely: Pearson correlation)



                    The main difference is whether you center based on a theoretical model (e.g., the expected value is supposed to be exactly 0) or based on the data (arithmetic mean). It is easy to see that the arithmetic mean will yield smaller Covariance than any different center.



                    However, smaller covariance does not imply smaller correlation, or the opposite. Assume that we have data X=(1,2) and Y=(2,1). It is easy to see that with arithmetic mean centering this will yield perfectly negative correlation, while if we know the generating process produces 0 on average, the data is actually positively correlated.
                    So in this example, we are centering - but with the theoretical expected value of 0.



                    This can arise easily. Consider we have a sensor array, 11x11, with the cells numbered -5 to +5. Rather than taking the arithmetic mean, it does make sense to use the "physical" mean of our sensor array here when looking for the correlation of sensor events (if we enumerated the cells 0 to 10, we'd use 5 as fixed mean, and we would get the exact same results, so that indexing choice disappears from the analysis - nice).






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$













                    • $begingroup$
                      Thanks @Anony-Mousse, will the sample covariance depend on the sample size? I.e. smaller sample size will yield smaller covariance ( before centering).
                      $endgroup$
                      – lvdp
                      12 hours ago










                    • $begingroup$
                      Depends on the sample obviously. On average - I don't know. I'd expect smaller samples to have more variability mostly, so maybe more often more extreme values. But that is just an intuition.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Anony-Mousse
                      1 hour ago
















                    2












                    $begingroup$

                    "somewhere" tends to be a rather unreliable source...



                    Covariance/correlation are defined with explicit centering. If you don't center the data, then you are not computing covariance/correlation. (Precisely: Pearson correlation)



                    The main difference is whether you center based on a theoretical model (e.g., the expected value is supposed to be exactly 0) or based on the data (arithmetic mean). It is easy to see that the arithmetic mean will yield smaller Covariance than any different center.



                    However, smaller covariance does not imply smaller correlation, or the opposite. Assume that we have data X=(1,2) and Y=(2,1). It is easy to see that with arithmetic mean centering this will yield perfectly negative correlation, while if we know the generating process produces 0 on average, the data is actually positively correlated.
                    So in this example, we are centering - but with the theoretical expected value of 0.



                    This can arise easily. Consider we have a sensor array, 11x11, with the cells numbered -5 to +5. Rather than taking the arithmetic mean, it does make sense to use the "physical" mean of our sensor array here when looking for the correlation of sensor events (if we enumerated the cells 0 to 10, we'd use 5 as fixed mean, and we would get the exact same results, so that indexing choice disappears from the analysis - nice).






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$













                    • $begingroup$
                      Thanks @Anony-Mousse, will the sample covariance depend on the sample size? I.e. smaller sample size will yield smaller covariance ( before centering).
                      $endgroup$
                      – lvdp
                      12 hours ago










                    • $begingroup$
                      Depends on the sample obviously. On average - I don't know. I'd expect smaller samples to have more variability mostly, so maybe more often more extreme values. But that is just an intuition.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Anony-Mousse
                      1 hour ago














                    2












                    2








                    2





                    $begingroup$

                    "somewhere" tends to be a rather unreliable source...



                    Covariance/correlation are defined with explicit centering. If you don't center the data, then you are not computing covariance/correlation. (Precisely: Pearson correlation)



                    The main difference is whether you center based on a theoretical model (e.g., the expected value is supposed to be exactly 0) or based on the data (arithmetic mean). It is easy to see that the arithmetic mean will yield smaller Covariance than any different center.



                    However, smaller covariance does not imply smaller correlation, or the opposite. Assume that we have data X=(1,2) and Y=(2,1). It is easy to see that with arithmetic mean centering this will yield perfectly negative correlation, while if we know the generating process produces 0 on average, the data is actually positively correlated.
                    So in this example, we are centering - but with the theoretical expected value of 0.



                    This can arise easily. Consider we have a sensor array, 11x11, with the cells numbered -5 to +5. Rather than taking the arithmetic mean, it does make sense to use the "physical" mean of our sensor array here when looking for the correlation of sensor events (if we enumerated the cells 0 to 10, we'd use 5 as fixed mean, and we would get the exact same results, so that indexing choice disappears from the analysis - nice).






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$



                    "somewhere" tends to be a rather unreliable source...



                    Covariance/correlation are defined with explicit centering. If you don't center the data, then you are not computing covariance/correlation. (Precisely: Pearson correlation)



                    The main difference is whether you center based on a theoretical model (e.g., the expected value is supposed to be exactly 0) or based on the data (arithmetic mean). It is easy to see that the arithmetic mean will yield smaller Covariance than any different center.



                    However, smaller covariance does not imply smaller correlation, or the opposite. Assume that we have data X=(1,2) and Y=(2,1). It is easy to see that with arithmetic mean centering this will yield perfectly negative correlation, while if we know the generating process produces 0 on average, the data is actually positively correlated.
                    So in this example, we are centering - but with the theoretical expected value of 0.



                    This can arise easily. Consider we have a sensor array, 11x11, with the cells numbered -5 to +5. Rather than taking the arithmetic mean, it does make sense to use the "physical" mean of our sensor array here when looking for the correlation of sensor events (if we enumerated the cells 0 to 10, we'd use 5 as fixed mean, and we would get the exact same results, so that indexing choice disappears from the analysis - nice).







                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer










                    answered 17 hours ago









                    Anony-MousseAnony-Mousse

                    30k54178




                    30k54178












                    • $begingroup$
                      Thanks @Anony-Mousse, will the sample covariance depend on the sample size? I.e. smaller sample size will yield smaller covariance ( before centering).
                      $endgroup$
                      – lvdp
                      12 hours ago










                    • $begingroup$
                      Depends on the sample obviously. On average - I don't know. I'd expect smaller samples to have more variability mostly, so maybe more often more extreme values. But that is just an intuition.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Anony-Mousse
                      1 hour ago


















                    • $begingroup$
                      Thanks @Anony-Mousse, will the sample covariance depend on the sample size? I.e. smaller sample size will yield smaller covariance ( before centering).
                      $endgroup$
                      – lvdp
                      12 hours ago










                    • $begingroup$
                      Depends on the sample obviously. On average - I don't know. I'd expect smaller samples to have more variability mostly, so maybe more often more extreme values. But that is just an intuition.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Anony-Mousse
                      1 hour ago
















                    $begingroup$
                    Thanks @Anony-Mousse, will the sample covariance depend on the sample size? I.e. smaller sample size will yield smaller covariance ( before centering).
                    $endgroup$
                    – lvdp
                    12 hours ago




                    $begingroup$
                    Thanks @Anony-Mousse, will the sample covariance depend on the sample size? I.e. smaller sample size will yield smaller covariance ( before centering).
                    $endgroup$
                    – lvdp
                    12 hours ago












                    $begingroup$
                    Depends on the sample obviously. On average - I don't know. I'd expect smaller samples to have more variability mostly, so maybe more often more extreme values. But that is just an intuition.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Anony-Mousse
                    1 hour ago




                    $begingroup$
                    Depends on the sample obviously. On average - I don't know. I'd expect smaller samples to have more variability mostly, so maybe more often more extreme values. But that is just an intuition.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Anony-Mousse
                    1 hour ago


















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